Discussion:
Referrals
(too old to reply)
Philip Chee
2013-05-29 11:40:38 UTC
Permalink
The highly competitive market for developers is forcing companies in
need of them to go to new lengths to find good candidates. Last month I
wrote about a company offering a free puppy (well, really, $1,000 to buy
a puppy, and a free year of dog sitting) as a bonus for anyone referring
a developer to them. Now Cambridge-based Hubspot, which offers inbound
marketing software as a service, and in the past offered a $10,000
referral bonus for anyone referring a developer (8 of which such bonuses
were paid out in 2012, they tell me), has taken things up several more
notches by promising a $30,000 referral bonus.
...
<http://www.itworld.com/it-management/358157/need-30000-try-referring-developer-hubspot>

Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Cryptoengineer
2013-05-29 12:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
The highly competitive market for developers is forcing companies in
need of them to go to new lengths to find good candidates. Last month I
wrote about a company offering a free puppy (well, really, $1,000 to buy
a puppy, and a free year of dog sitting) as a bonus for anyone referring
a developer to them. Now Cambridge-based Hubspot, which offers inbound
marketing software as a service, and in the past offered a $10,000
referral bonus for anyone referring a developer (8 of which such bonuses
were paid out in 2012, they tell me), has taken things up several more
notches by promising a $30,000 referral bonus.
...
<http://www.itworld.com/it-management/358157/need-30000-try-referring-...>
Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?
We still have $8k referral bonuses at my workplace.

As for Keith; let's not beat a dead horse. His issues have been
discussed to death, and he hasn't raised the topic lately.

pt
Cryptoengineer
2013-05-29 13:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
The highly competitive market for developers is forcing companies in
need of them to go to new lengths to find good candidates. Last month I
wrote about a company offering a free puppy (well, really, $1,000 to buy
a puppy, and a free year of dog sitting) as a bonus for anyone referring
a developer to them. Now Cambridge-based Hubspot, which offers inbound
marketing software as a service, and in the past offered a $10,000
referral bonus for anyone referring a developer (8 of which such bonuses
were paid out in 2012, they tell me), has taken things up several more
notches by promising a $30,000 referral bonus.
...
<http://www.itworld.com/it-management/358157/need-30000-try-referring-...>
Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?
We still have $8k referral bonuses at my workplace.
As for Keith; let's not beat a dead horse. His issues have been
discussed to death, and he hasn't raised the topic lately.
pt
...and of course, I break my own rule. The advice Phillip, myself and
others have been giving Keith is echoed here:

http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/05/a-commencement-speech-for-graduating-2013-cs-majors.html

worth reading, if you're in the business.

pt
Ben Yalow
2013-05-29 21:15:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
The highly competitive market for developers is forcing companies in
need of them to go to new lengths to find good candidates. Last month I
wrote about a company offering a free puppy (well, really, $1,000 to bu=
y
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
a puppy, and a free year of dog sitting) as a bonus for anyone referrin=
g
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
a developer to them. Now Cambridge-based Hubspot, which offers inbound
marketing software as a service, and in the past offered a $10,000
referral bonus for anyone referring a developer (8 of which such bonuse=
s
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
were paid out in 2012, they tell me), has taken things up several more
notches by promising a $30,000 referral bonus.
...
<http://www.itworld.com/it-management/358157/need-30000-try-referring-.=
..>
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?
We still have $8k referral bonuses at my workplace.
As for Keith; let's not beat a dead horse. His issues have been
discussed to death, and he hasn't raised the topic lately.
pt
...and of course, I break my own rule. The advice Phillip, myself and
http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/05/a-commencement-speech-for-graduating=
-2013-cs-majors.html
worth reading, if you're in the business.
And even on topic for rasff, since James is a long-time SF fan (I've been
on a bunch of con committees with him, when he was an active part of
NESFA).
Post by Cryptoengineer
pt
Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
Keith F. Lynch
2013-05-30 00:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
...and of course, I break my own rule. The advice Phillip, myself
http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/05/a-commencement-speech-for-graduating-2013-cs-majors.html
When I talk about passion, I mean love. I've been in love with
computers since I was 14 years old,

Even longer in my case.

and I'd be playing with them even if I didn't get paid for it.

I am.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Jette Goldie
2013-05-31 22:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
The highly competitive market for developers is forcing companies in
need of them to go to new lengths to find good candidates. Last month I
wrote about a company offering a free puppy (well, really, $1,000 to buy
a puppy, and a free year of dog sitting) as a bonus for anyone referring
a developer to them. Now Cambridge-based Hubspot, which offers inbound
marketing software as a service, and in the past offered a $10,000
referral bonus for anyone referring a developer (8 of which such bonuses
were paid out in 2012, they tell me), has taken things up several more
notches by promising a $30,000 referral bonus.
...
<http://www.itworld.com/it-management/358157/need-30000-try-referring-...>
Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?
We still have $8k referral bonuses at my workplace.
As for Keith; let's not beat a dead horse. His issues have been
discussed to death, and he hasn't raised the topic lately.
pt
quite. move on.
--
Jette Goldie
***@btinternet.com

Living in the Future!
Keith F. Lynch
2013-05-30 01:16:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?
Yes. And I'll keep claiming it no matter how many articles are
quoted. I don't care if a hundred articles signed by the Pope, the
Dalai Lama, and The Amazing Randi were to all say that millions of
hiring managers are so despairing of being able to find anyone to hire
even for a million dollars each that they're jumping out of their
office windows like in 1929. Words are cheap. I want to see job
offers, not words.

Similarly, a thirsty man in the desert won't be consoled by claims
that the desert is actually a deep, wide, fresh-water lake. Dry sand
is still just dry sand.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Cryptoengineer
2013-05-30 02:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?
Yes.  And I'll keep claiming it no matter how many articles are
quoted.  I don't care if a hundred articles signed by the Pope, the
Dalai Lama, and The Amazing Randi were to all say that millions of
hiring managers are so despairing of being able to find anyone to hire
even for a million dollars each that they're jumping out of their
office windows like in 1929.  Words are cheap.  I want to see job
offers, not words.
Make yourself what hiring managers are looking for, as opposed to what
you think they should be looking for, and you'll get offers.

You're not selling the product they want.

pt
Philip Chee
2013-05-30 04:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
Is Keith still claiming he can't get a job in the tech sector?
Yes. And I'll keep claiming it no matter how many articles are
quoted. I don't care if a hundred articles signed by the Pope, the
Dalai Lama, and The Amazing Randi were to all say that millions of
hiring managers are so despairing of being able to find anyone to hire
even for a million dollars each that they're jumping out of their
office windows like in 1929. Words are cheap. I want to see job
offers, not words.
Have you considered the possibility that the reason you can't get a job
in the tech sector is because your tech skills have gone stale?
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Similarly, a thirsty man in the desert won't be consoled by claims
that the desert is actually a deep, wide, fresh-water lake. Dry sand
is still just dry sand.
Sour grapes tsk tsk.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Keith F. Lynch
2013-05-31 01:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Have you considered the possibility that the reason you can't get a
job in the tech sector is because your tech skills have gone stale?
Yes, of course I have, and of course they have. Everyone's has. I
learn new things every day, but nobody is capable of staying up to
date on everything. If an employer asks me to get caught up on
something, I will, of course. And I'll do it on my own time.

If a cat claims to be starving, but turns up its nose at every kind
of food, I'll be skeptical that it's really starving. Naturally the
animal can find something wrong with any food, if it's picky enough.
But that's strong evidence against hunger.

Again, it isn't just me. It's the majority of IT people I know, most
of whom have clean records and advanced degrees. And it's not just
people I know, or just people who live in this area. This "paradox"
has been widely reported in the news.

It's almost as stupid as an employer refusing to hire an applicant
because the applicant doesn't yet know the street address of the
office, which is of course essential for any employee who works there
to know. Sure, the applicant could easily learn it, but why not hold
out for an applicant who already knows it?
Post by Philip Chee
Sour grapes tsk tsk.
Sure, millions of successful Americans just spontaneously turned into
lazy slackers over the past decade, just as happened in the 1930s.
Obviously it's their own fault, not the fault of the economy, just
as was the case 90 years ago.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Cryptoengineer
2013-05-31 04:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Have you considered the possibility that the reason you can't get a
job in the tech sector is because your tech skills have gone stale?
Yes, of course I have, and of course they have.  Everyone's has.  I
learn new things every day, but nobody is capable of staying up to
date on everything.  If an employer asks me to get caught up on
something, I will, of course.  And I'll do it on my own time.
You know, you're right. But it doesn't matter. Hiring managers want to
see evidence of up-to-date skills, recently exercised. I actually
believe you *could* pick things up quickly. But that doesn't matter
either. What matters is what the persons making hiring decisions want
to see, even if you think they're wrong. I live in the real world, not
the one I think the world should be. How about you?

Forex, update your website. At the moment, it's static HTML, and was
last cool in 1993. But that was 20 years ago. Any employer looking at
that would *not* offer you a web oriented job.
If a cat claims to be starving, but turns up its nose at every kind
of food, I'll be skeptical that it's really starving.  Naturally the
animal can find something wrong with any food, if it's picky enough.
But that's strong evidence against hunger.
If someone bitches and moans about not being able to get a good job,
yet refuses good advice on how to remedy their situation, this is
strong evidence that they'd rather complain than have a good job.
Again, it isn't just me.  It's the majority of IT people I know, most
of whom have clean records and advanced degrees.  And it's not just
people I know, or just people who live in this area.  This "paradox"
has been widely reported in the news.
The only ones I'm aware of are those, like you, who have failed to
update themselves.
It's almost as stupid as an employer refusing to hire an applicant
because the applicant doesn't yet know the street address of the
office, which is of course essential for any employee who works there
to know.  Sure, the applicant could easily learn it, but why not hold
out for an applicant who already knows it?
'Almost as stupid as an employer...'. There's the crux of your
problem. You're thinking the employer is stupid. It may even be true.
IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK. You're not offering what they want
to buy, so you're not getting offers.
Post by Philip Chee
Sour grapes tsk tsk.
Sure, millions of successful Americans just spontaneously turned into
lazy slackers over the past decade, just as happened in the 1930s.
Obviously it's their own fault, not the fault of the economy, just
as was the case 90 years ago.
I can't speak for other sectors, but high-end software engineers *are*
highly employable at this time. But you do not look like one, from an
employer's perspective.

pt
Andy Leighton
2013-05-31 09:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
Have you considered the possibility that the reason you can't get a
job in the tech sector is because your tech skills have gone stale?
Yes, of course I have, and of course they have.  Everyone's has.  I
learn new things every day, but nobody is capable of staying up to
date on everything.  If an employer asks me to get caught up on
something, I will, of course.  And I'll do it on my own time.
You know, you're right. But it doesn't matter. Hiring managers want to
see evidence of up-to-date skills, recently exercised. I actually
believe you *could* pick things up quickly. But that doesn't matter
either. What matters is what the persons making hiring decisions want
to see, even if you think they're wrong. I live in the real world, not
the one I think the world should be. How about you?
Yep. If you were a manager and had a choice between someone who has
done the work upfront to learn and use Javascript effectively. Who
can point to being active - a sample app or something, going to
meetups, etc or one who says "Yeah Javascript, no problem, just
give me a couple of weeks and I'll be up to speed". Then I know which
I would choose - even if I hadn't had experience of people who say
"just give me a couple of weeks" and that couple of weeks turns into
six or more.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Philip Chee
2013-05-31 09:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
Have you considered the possibility that the reason you can't get a
job in the tech sector is because your tech skills have gone stale?
Yes, of course I have, and of course they have. Everyone's has. I
learn new things every day, but nobody is capable of staying up to
date on everything. If an employer asks me to get caught up on
something, I will, of course. And I'll do it on my own time.
You know, you're right. But it doesn't matter. Hiring managers want to
see evidence of up-to-date skills, recently exercised. I actually
believe you *could* pick things up quickly. But that doesn't matter
either. What matters is what the persons making hiring decisions want
to see, even if you think they're wrong. I live in the real world, not
the one I think the world should be. How about you?
Several people including myself have recommended ways for Keith to
improve his visibility to potential employers, ways that incur zero
cost, and only a bit of his time, yet he doesn't lift a finger to help
himself.

For example in the last year or so Keith has posted to this newsgroup
some C/C++ puzzles. In addition to rasff what he should have also done
is to start a blog on his KeithLynch.net site and repost his puzzles
there. Tag that post with some useful keywords, turn on commenting and
invite people to give their take on his puzzles.

Since he's already paying for that domain, the incremental cost is zero,
and wall-clock time is almost zero, since he's already written his
puzzles for rasff.
Post by Cryptoengineer
Forex, update your website. At the moment, it's static HTML, and was
last cool in 1993. But that was 20 years ago. Any employer looking at
Bah! Static HTML is still useful as long as it's HTML5 and not just a
bunch of tag soup. The 90's style tag soup source code of Keiths implies
that he's is totally out or touch. It doesn't matter that Keith thinks
his html is perfectly fine if employers think he's a refugee from the
90s Geocities.

There are some simple zero cost things he could do here:
1. Add a HTML5 doctype and get it validated by the w3c validator:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3a%2f%2fwww.keithlynch.net/%2f
(1 Error 4 Warnings)
"No Character Encoding Found! Falling back to UTF-8."
Notice that the w3c falls back to utf-8, and not ASCII nor ISO-8859-1

2. Add some CSS (CSS 2.1 would be suitable). Without CSS Keith's site
looks really amateurish.
Post by Cryptoengineer
that would *not* offer you a web oriented job.
For one thing prospective employers aren't likely to be using Lynx to
look at websites.
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Keith F. Lynch
If a cat claims to be starving, but turns up its nose at every kind
of food, I'll be skeptical that it's really starving. Naturally the
animal can find something wrong with any food, if it's picky enough.
But that's strong evidence against hunger.
If someone bitches and moans about not being able to get a good job,
yet refuses good advice on how to remedy their situation, this is
strong evidence that they'd rather complain than have a good job.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Again, it isn't just me. It's the majority of IT people I know, most
of whom have clean records and advanced degrees. And it's not just
people I know, or just people who live in this area. This "paradox"
has been widely reported in the news.
The only ones I'm aware of are those, like you, who have failed to
update themselves.
The other thing I've suggested to Keith is to put all the open source
source code he's written on one of the free repository hosting services
such as GitHub and Sourceforge. Signing up is free so it's zero cost to
Keith. Time taken: about as long as it takes him to sign up and push his
code there.
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Keith F. Lynch
It's almost as stupid as an employer refusing to hire an applicant
because the applicant doesn't yet know the street address of the
office, which is of course essential for any employee who works there
to know. Sure, the applicant could easily learn it, but why not hold
out for an applicant who already knows it?
'Almost as stupid as an employer...'. There's the crux of your
problem. You're thinking the employer is stupid. It may even be true.
IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK. You're not offering what they want
I think the double quote above should be a single quote, or at least an
apostrophe.
Post by Cryptoengineer
to buy, so you're not getting offers.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
Sour grapes tsk tsk.
Sure, millions of successful Americans just spontaneously turned into
lazy slackers over the past decade, just as happened in the 1930s.
Obviously it's their own fault, not the fault of the economy, just
as was the case 90 years ago.
I can't speak for other sectors, but high-end software engineers *are*
highly employable at this time. But you do not look like one, from an
employer's perspective.
Well there is that too.
Post by Cryptoengineer
pt
Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Cryptoengineer
2013-05-31 15:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Cryptoengineer
'Almost as stupid as an employer...'. There's the crux of your
problem. You're thinking the employer is stupid. It may even be true.
IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK. You're not offering what they want
I think the double quote above should be a single quote, or at least an
apostrophe.
Yup, I held down the shift key while typing. On my keyboard, shift-'
is ".

pt
Philip Chee
2013-05-31 20:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Cryptoengineer
'Almost as stupid as an employer...'. There's the crux of your
problem. You're thinking the employer is stupid. It may even be true.
IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK. You're not offering what they want
I think the double quote above should be a single quote, or at least an
apostrophe.
Yup, I held down the shift key while typing. On my keyboard, shift-'
is ".
pt
You should get a better keyboard, e.g. one with a caps-lock key.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Keith F. Lynch
2013-05-31 23:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
You should get a better keyboard, e.g. one with a caps-lock key.
I've seldom found a use for that key. Mostly it just gets in the
way, especially if it's placed where the control key belongs. On
the rare occasions when I want to capitalize a block of text, I
type it normally then use the appropriate Emacs commands to make
it all uppercase.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
David Friedman
2013-05-31 19:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Without CSS Keith's site looks really amateurish.
At a tangent from Philip's (probably sensible) suggestions to Keith ... .

I've occasionally had people offer to upgrade my web site, which
averages two or three thousand visitors a day, and which was written by
me long ago using some combination of an old WYSIWYG HTML editor and
hand coding. I'm not looking for a job writing software or web stuff--my
only interest is making stuff, mostly things I've written, available for
people to read.

How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint? Is there any
good reason for me to either learn enough to redo the site myself or
accept someone else's offer to redo it for me for free?

I should add that I think such offers are genuine, not scams--they are
coming from people who are presumably fans of my (non-fiction) work.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
David Harmon
2013-05-31 20:53:16 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:08:00 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, David
Post by David Friedman
I've occasionally had people offer to upgrade my web site, which
averages two or three thousand visitors a day, and which was written by
me long ago using some combination of an old WYSIWYG HTML editor and
hand coding. I'm not looking for a job writing software or web stuff--my
only interest is making stuff, mostly things I've written, available for
people to read.
How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint?
None at all.
Philip Chee
2013-06-01 06:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Harmon
On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:08:00 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, David
Post by David Friedman
I've occasionally had people offer to upgrade my web site, which
averages two or three thousand visitors a day, and which was written by
me long ago using some combination of an old WYSIWYG HTML editor and
hand coding. I'm not looking for a job writing software or web stuff--my
only interest is making stuff, mostly things I've written, available for
people to read.
How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint?
None at all.
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS. On
the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
David Friedman
2013-06-01 06:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Harmon
On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:08:00 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, David
Post by David Friedman
I've occasionally had people offer to upgrade my web site, which
averages two or three thousand visitors a day, and which was written by
me long ago using some combination of an old WYSIWYG HTML editor and
hand coding. I'm not looking for a job writing software or web stuff--my
only interest is making stuff, mostly things I've written, available for
people to read.
How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint?
None at all.
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS. On
the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.
Why does that matter?
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Philip Chee
2013-06-01 11:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Harmon
On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:08:00 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, David
Post by David Friedman
I've occasionally had people offer to upgrade my web site, which
averages two or three thousand visitors a day, and which was written by
me long ago using some combination of an old WYSIWYG HTML editor and
hand coding. I'm not looking for a job writing software or web stuff--my
only interest is making stuff, mostly things I've written, available for
people to read.
How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint?
None at all.
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS. On
the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.
Why does that matter?
http://www.google.com/search?q=why+use+css&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/CSS/Getting_started/Why_use_CSS

CSS helps you to keep the information content of a document separate
from the details of how to display it. The details of how to display the
document are known as its style. You keep the style separate from the
content so that you can:

* Avoid duplication
* Make maintenance easier
* Use the same content with different styles for different purposes

http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/introduction/key_ideas.html

Style sheets exist, above all, to enable the following principle to be
put into practice.

Web pages should separate content from appearance.

As a developer this means that the information in your web site should
go into your HTML files, but HTML files should not contain information
about how that information is displayed. And you've probably guessed by
now that information about how the pages should appear goes into CSS files.

You might wonder what advantages this conveys. Why go to all of this
trouble? Just a couple of advantages might give you an idea about why
this approach has long been considered beneficial in areas of document
management that have been around a lot longer than the world wide web.

http://purelybranded.com/notes/why-use-css-in-website-design/

Why Use CSS in Website Design
why use css in web design
4,102

We are often asked by our web design clients about “that word we always
use, is it CFS, CIS, CBS?” Of course the client is referring to
Cascading Style Sheets, or CSS. Before we can explain why we think the
use of CSS in website design is so important, let us give you some
background about CSS.

CSS is an extremely powerful style sheet language which is used to
control the look and feel of the content written in HTML. So what does
this mean? It means that if we have a website element, let’s say a
“title”, and we want to make the text size “20px”, the color “black”,
and the padding around it “10px”, we would use CSS to control the look
of our element.

OK, so what’s so great about that you ask? Here are several reasons why
everyone should use CSS in web design:
CSS Provides Efficiency in Design and Updates

With CSS, we are able to create rules, and apply those rules to many
elements within the website. This approach offers many advantages when
site-wide changes are required by a client. Since the content is
completely separated from the design, we can make those changes in our
Style Sheet and have it effect every applicable instance.
CSS Use Can Lead To Faster Page Downloads

Since rules are only downloaded once by the browser, then are cached and
used for each page load, the use of CSS can lead to lighter page loads,
and improved performance. This contributes to lighter server load and
lower requirements, which overall saves money for our clients.

http://www.ironspider.ca/adv/basic_css/whyusecss.htm

And last but not least, yes, using CSS in your web pages will support
the international efforts being made (ostensibly) to clean up the
internet by promoting so-called 'semantic markup' or web pages created
using just structural HTML elements and attributes. All the
presentational HTML elements and attributes should be replaced with CSS.

The idea here is that HTML elements and attributes should define only
how a web page is structured (e.g., this is a paragraph, this is a list
item, this is a table defining genuine tabular data instead of page
layout). All HTML elements and attributes normally used for presentation
(e.g., this is Times New Roman font, this is red, this is aligned to the
left) should be relegated to CSS.

Then, since different style sheets can be applied to the same web page
depending on the circumstances, the web page becomes much more versatile
and becomes more accessible to different mediums such as small screen
devices, print devices, voice browsers and so on and so forth.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
David Friedman
2013-06-01 17:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Friedman
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Harmon
On Fri, 31 May 2013 12:08:00 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, David
Post by David Friedman
I've occasionally had people offer to upgrade my web site, which
averages two or three thousand visitors a day, and which was written by
me long ago using some combination of an old WYSIWYG HTML editor and
hand coding. I'm not looking for a job writing software or web stuff--my
only interest is making stuff, mostly things I've written, available for
people to read.
How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint?
None at all.
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS. On
the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.
Why does that matter?
http://www.google.com/search?q=why+use+css&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&c
lient=mozilla
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/CSS/Getting_started/Why_use
_CSS
CSS helps you to keep the information content of a document separate
from the details of how to display it. The details of how to display the
document are known as its style. You keep the style separate from the
* Avoid duplication
* Make maintenance easier
* Use the same content with different styles for different purposes
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/introduction/key_idea
s.html
Style sheets exist, above all, to enable the following principle to be
put into practice.
Web pages should separate content from appearance.
As a developer this means that the information in your web site should
go into your HTML files, but HTML files should not contain information
about how that information is displayed. And you've probably guessed by
now that information about how the pages should appear goes into CSS files.
You might wonder what advantages this conveys.
Precisely my question. Specifically for my web site, which gets only
minor changes over time, mostly along the lines of replacing the "quote
of the month" with a new one (less often than once a month, I confess),
or adding a link to something new I've written. And is worked on by only
one person--me.
Post by Philip Chee
Why go to all of this
trouble? Just a couple of advantages might give you an idea about why
this approach has long been considered beneficial in areas of document
management that have been around a lot longer than the world wide web.
http://purelybranded.com/notes/why-use-css-in-website-design/
Why Use CSS in Website Design
why use css in web design
4,102
We are often asked by our web design clients about ³that word we always
use, is it CFS, CIS, CBS?² Of course the client is referring to
Cascading Style Sheets, or CSS. Before we can explain why we think the
use of CSS in website design is so important, let us give you some
background about CSS.
CSS is an extremely powerful style sheet language which is used to
control the look and feel of the content written in HTML. So what does
this mean? It means that if we have a website element, let¹s say a
³title², and we want to make the text size ³20px², the color ³black²,
and the padding around it ³10px², we would use CSS to control the look
of our element.
OK, so what¹s so great about that you ask? Here are several reasons why
CSS Provides Efficiency in Design and Updates
With CSS, we are able to create rules, and apply those rules to many
elements within the website. This approach offers many advantages when
site-wide changes are required by a client. Since the content is
completely separated from the design, we can make those changes in our
Style Sheet and have it effect every applicable instance.
CSS Use Can Lead To Faster Page Downloads
Since rules are only downloaded once by the browser, then are cached and
used for each page load, the use of CSS can lead to lighter page loads,
and improved performance. This contributes to lighter server load and
lower requirements, which overall saves money for our clients.
http://www.ironspider.ca/adv/basic_css/whyusecss.htm
I suspect this advantage is trivial for my page. The whole top level is
a 17k HTML file. I think the only large files on the site are pdf's (of
three books).
Post by Philip Chee
And last but not least, yes, using CSS in your web pages will support
the international efforts being made (ostensibly) to clean up the
internet by promoting so-called 'semantic markup' or web pages created
using just structural HTML elements and attributes. All the
presentational HTML elements and attributes should be replaced with CSS.
The idea here is that HTML elements and attributes should define only
how a web page is structured (e.g., this is a paragraph, this is a list
item, this is a table defining genuine tabular data instead of page
layout). All HTML elements and attributes normally used for presentation
(e.g., this is Times New Roman font, this is red, this is aligned to the
left) should be relegated to CSS.
Then, since different style sheets can be applied to the same web page
depending on the circumstances, the web page becomes much more versatile
and becomes more accessible to different mediums such as small screen
devices, print devices, voice browsers and so on and so forth.
That last strikes me as the only part that might be relevant to me. The
page as it is looks fine on my smartphone, but my smartphone has (I
think) the largest screen of any smartphone currently on the market, so
it's possible that making it easier to read on a smaller screen would be
desirable.

Thanks for the information.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-02 21:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational
elements of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML
markup. Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and
replaced by CSS. On the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.
Does this mean all existing pages should be re-written at great effort,
even though it wouldn't make them look any different in any browser?

And presumably this is without any guarantee that the same thing won't
have to be done again every few years, forever, as fashions continue
to change?

ObFandom: I put over 30 years of past WSFA Journals online. I did
so with the expectation that this was a one-time process -- that once
a given Journal was on the Web, that no maintenance would ever be
necessary on that issue. Since back issues are of course unchanging.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Scott Dorsey
2013-06-02 22:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational
elements of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML
markup. Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and
replaced by CSS. On the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.
Does this mean all existing pages should be re-written at great effort,
even though it wouldn't make them look any different in any browser?
If there is any chance of them ever being changed, yes.

The thing about CSS is that it allows very easy and rapid changes; one format
change in one file can affect all pages on the site. If you are coding by
hand, CSS makes everything much easier because you only have to set up the
formatting once.

If you are looking at the web on a dumb terminal using lynx, you should
consider CSS a huge advance because it allows you to view the web content
without formatting designed for a graphical browser getting in your way.
It separates the formatting from the content and allows the browser to do
what it likes with each.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
And presumably this is without any guarantee that the same thing won't
have to be done again every few years, forever, as fashions continue
to change?
The thing about CSS is that as fashions change, you can update your site
much more readily. If you want to add more pages to your site to put more
information up, you have only to worry about the actual content, you don't
have to format everything individually by hand.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFandom: I put over 30 years of past WSFA Journals online. I did
so with the expectation that this was a one-time process -- that once
a given Journal was on the Web, that no maintenance would ever be
necessary on that issue. Since back issues are of course unchanging.
Back issues are, but search systems and display systems might not be.
Which is the marvel of the web, that you can keep one fixed and the other
changing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
David Friedman
2013-06-03 01:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational
elements of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML
markup. Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and
replaced by CSS. On the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.
Does this mean all existing pages should be re-written at great effort,
even though it wouldn't make them look any different in any browser?
If there is any chance of them ever being changed, yes.
The thing about CSS is that it allows very easy and rapid changes; one format
change in one file can affect all pages on the site. If you are coding by
hand, CSS makes everything much easier because you only have to set up the
formatting once.
I'm not convinced.

I make minor changes in my site from time to time, changing the names
and links of the courses I'm teaching or adding a link to a new webbed
article. I can't see that CSS would make it any easier, and converting
to CSS would be a nuisance.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-03 02:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
If you are looking at the web on a dumb terminal using lynx, you
should consider CSS a huge advance because it allows you to view the
web content without formatting designed for a graphical browser
getting in your way.
Lynx doesn't appear to work correctly with CSS. Lynx shows me lots of
conditional messages that don't apply.

What's meant by "dumb terminal" as contrasted with "terminal"? Does
it have any meaning, or is it just a random insult?
Post by Scott Dorsey
The thing about CSS is that as fashions change, you can update your
site much more readily.
Maybe so, if you're into chasing fashion. I'll leave that to runway
models and car makers. Also, what if CSS itself becomes unfashionable?
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFandom: I put over 30 years of past WSFA Journals online. I did
so with the expectation that this was a one-time process -- that once
a given Journal was on the Web, that no maintenance would ever be
necessary on that issue. Since back issues are of course unchanging.
Back issues are, but search systems and display systems might not
be. Which is the marvel of the web, that you can keep one fixed and
the other changing.
I had a wonderful index, but the current webmasters -- or whatever
they're called -- seem to have gradually abandoned the site, first not
bothering with index updates, and finally not even bothering to put up
new WSFA Journals.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Jay E. Morris
2013-06-03 02:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
If you are looking at the web on a dumb terminal using lynx, you
should consider CSS a huge advance because it allows you to view the
web content without formatting designed for a graphical browser
getting in your way.
Lynx doesn't appear to work correctly with CSS. Lynx shows me lots of
conditional messages that don't apply.
What's meant by "dumb terminal" as contrasted with "terminal"? Does
it have any meaning, or is it just a random insult?
I thought that was universal usage. I have a bumper sticker that I got
15 or so years ago at a DECUS* meeting with a VT240 pictured with the
words "Save the dumb terminal".

*Or had it changed names by then? I forget.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
The thing about CSS is that as fashions change, you can update your
site much more readily.
Maybe so, if you're into chasing fashion. I'll leave that to runway
models and car makers. Also, what if CSS itself becomes unfashionable?
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFandom: I put over 30 years of past WSFA Journals online. I did
so with the expectation that this was a one-time process -- that once
a given Journal was on the Web, that no maintenance would ever be
necessary on that issue. Since back issues are of course unchanging.
Back issues are, but search systems and display systems might not
be. Which is the marvel of the web, that you can keep one fixed and
the other changing.
I had a wonderful index, but the current webmasters -- or whatever
they're called -- seem to have gradually abandoned the site, first not
bothering with index updates, and finally not even bothering to put up
new WSFA Journals.
Scott Dorsey
2013-06-03 14:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
If you are looking at the web on a dumb terminal using lynx, you
should consider CSS a huge advance because it allows you to view the
web content without formatting designed for a graphical browser
getting in your way.
Lynx doesn't appear to work correctly with CSS. Lynx shows me lots of
conditional messages that don't apply.
Are you using the latest version of lynx on Panix? That works fine for me.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
What's meant by "dumb terminal" as contrasted with "terminal"? Does
it have any meaning, or is it just a random insult?
A smart terminal is one which can function independently, for example you
can download data entry screens to the terminal, the user can fill them out
locally, and the terminal ships them back. It operates in block mode. The
IBM 3270 system is the classic example.

A glass TTY is a device that has no block mode and no cursor control, it
merely implements the functions of a teletype. Don Lancaster's terminal
is the classic example.

A dumb terminal is in-between. It has cursor control, but it does not have
any block mode or the ability to download forms. It does not have any
multidrop polling mode that allows users to fill out a form and wait for the
next poll to come around to ship the form back to the server. The VT100
is the classic example.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational
elements of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML
markup. Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and
replaced by CSS. On the other hand <strong> should be used in HTML.
Does this mean all existing pages should be re-written at great effort,
even though it wouldn't make them look any different in any browser?
You've asked me this before. My answer hasn't changed.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
And presumably this is without any guarantee that the same thing won't
have to be done again every few years, forever, as fashions continue
to change?
ObFandom: I put over 30 years of past WSFA Journals online. I did
so with the expectation that this was a one-time process -- that once
a given Journal was on the Web, that no maintenance would ever be
necessary on that issue. Since back issues are of course unchanging.
Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
David Harmon
2013-06-02 21:37:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 14:08:54 +0800 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, Philip
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS.
If the HTML mavens wanted it that way, they should have provided
facilities to do it that way from the beginning. That was one of my
chief criticisms the first time I saw HTML. Is there some reason it
was a bad idea back then?
Andy Leighton
2013-06-02 22:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Harmon
On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 14:08:54 +0800 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, Philip
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS.
If the HTML mavens wanted it that way, they should have provided
facilities to do it that way from the beginning. That was one of my
chief criticisms the first time I saw HTML. Is there some reason it
was a bad idea back then?
Not a bad idea as such. The standard way of styling SGML at the time
DSSSL is much more heavyweight than CSS - too heavyweight to implement
on a client. So styling wasn't considered until a few years had passed,
and html had started to gain traction. CSS 1.0 was published in '96
about a year after HTML 2.0 was published. Various competing styling
proposals had been in discussion for about a year before CSS 1.0 was
finally unveiled. At that time there were relatively few web sites
at thes start of 1996 only 100,000 websites existed, at the end of 1992
there were about 26 websites. I don't think that it is fair to judge
early HTML on its use-case now, as to its use-case in 1989/90.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Scott Dorsey
2013-06-02 22:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Harmon
On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 14:08:54 +0800 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, Philip
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS.
If the HTML mavens wanted it that way, they should have provided
facilities to do it that way from the beginning. That was one of my
chief criticisms the first time I saw HTML. Is there some reason it
was a bad idea back then?
The original notion with HTML as created by Mr. Berners-Lee is that the
web page would contain content and some basic information about how the
content is to be formatted, and the browser would handle all of the actual
formatting.

So, no matter what your screen size is, the browser would lay the content
out with as many characters per line as was appropriate for the font that
the end user of the browser had selected, and put the pictures in the right
places for that screen size.

Now... the thing is that as soon as HTML 1.0 came out, people started trying
to override the browsers' decisions and force the browser into a particular
format. Many of these attempts at forcing format were very bad and
unsuccessful unless a user had a particular version of a particular browser
and so forth.

So.... CSS came about to create a compromise by which the web server could
provide formatting information to the browser separately from the content.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-03 02:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
The original notion with HTML as created by Mr. Berners-Lee is that
the web page would contain content and some basic information about
how the content is to be formatted, and the browser would handle all
of the actual formatting.
So, no matter what your screen size is, the browser would lay the
content out with as many characters per line as was appropriate for
the font that the end user of the browser had selected, and put the
pictures in the right places for that screen size.
Right.
Post by Scott Dorsey
Now... the thing is that as soon as HTML 1.0 came out, people
started trying to override the browsers' decisions and force the
browser into a particular format. Many of these attempts at forcing
format were very bad and unsuccessful unless a user had a particular
version of a particular browser and so forth.
Indeed.
Post by Scott Dorsey
So.... CSS came about to create a compromise by which the web server
could provide formatting information to the browser separately from
the content.
I thought PDF was invented to keep the control-freaks happy, i.e. all
those for whom it's far more important that their layout be preserved
exactly than that their content be readable comfortably, or at all, by
the user. The downside is that PDF files tend to be horribly bloated,
often aren't searchable, and don't work at all with some browsers and
some display devices.

If anyone thinks their content is even less important than their
layout, I'll take them at their word and spend my time elsewhere.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
David Friedman
2013-06-03 02:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
The downside is that PDF files tend to be horribly bloated,
often aren't searchable
I think they are only not searchable if the pages are images, what you
get with scanning and without OCR. The PDF's I've created and worked
with contain text and are searchable.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I thought PDF was invented to keep the control-freaks happy, i.e. all
those for whom it's far more important that their layout be preserved
exactly than that their content be readable comfortably, or at all, by
the user. The downside is that PDF files tend to be horribly bloated,
often aren't searchable, and don't work at all with some browsers and
some display devices.
PDFs are orthogonal to webpages. I don't know why you're conflating the
two, except perhaps so that you have something else to rant about.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
If anyone thinks their content is even less important than their
layout, I'll take them at their word and spend my time elsewhere.
Nobody I know thinks that their layout is more important than their
content. However layout is a gatekeeper issue. A website which has a
terrible layout will make people leave immediately before they can
realize that the content was what they were looking for in the first
place. "Life is too short" etc.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Scott Dorsey
2013-06-03 14:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
So.... CSS came about to create a compromise by which the web server
could provide formatting information to the browser separately from
the content.
I thought PDF was invented to keep the control-freaks happy, i.e. all
those for whom it's far more important that their layout be preserved
exactly than that their content be readable comfortably, or at all, by
the user. The downside is that PDF files tend to be horribly bloated,
often aren't searchable, and don't work at all with some browsers and
some display devices.
Right! CSS is the opposite of that! CSS provides content and formatting
both, but in different ways, and if the browser is unable to display with
that formatting (for example, if it is lynx, or a speech synthesis browser
for the blind), it can ignore it. CSS gives it the freedom to do so, which
was not possible before.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Harmon
On Sat, 01 Jun 2013 14:08:54 +0800 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, Philip
Post by Philip Chee
The current best practices say that any purely presentational elements
of a webpage should go into CSS leaving semantics to HTML markup.
Example: <bold> and <italics> should be removed and replaced by CSS.
If the HTML mavens wanted it that way, they should have provided
facilities to do it that way from the beginning. That was one of my
chief criticisms the first time I saw HTML. Is there some reason it
was a bad idea back then?
Back then there were no standards and HTML was tagsoup. Since there were
no standards each browser could interpret html any which way they liked
(<blink> <marquee>) and nobody could say that their behaviour was right
or wrong or anything. There weren't any HTML marvens then either. It was
the wild west of the internet in those days.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
2013-06-01 08:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint? Is there any
good reason for me to either learn enough to redo the site myself or
accept someone else's offer to redo it for me for free?
My advice - as from someone who recently made a webpage CMS and had seen
it being administered by well intending non-professionals is, unless you
have an offer from a graphical designer - don't do it.

It is not trivial to come up with a nice looking, technically sound and
pleasant to browse website (pick two...). Unless you spent some time
designing covers or houses or are sure about your aesthetic values.

Your page is more or less fine - you could perhaps switch to UTF-8, but
unless you actually require non-cp1252 characters, there is no need.
You could do some optimization (both technical and viewer oriented), but
again, probably not worth the effort.

The combination of blue background and black foreground is debatable,
but at least it is not dark blue :-)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
David Friedman
2013-06-01 17:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by David Friedman
How much difference does CSS, or any of the other developments in the
decade+ since I created by site, make from that standpoint? Is there any
good reason for me to either learn enough to redo the site myself or
accept someone else's offer to redo it for me for free?
My advice - as from someone who recently made a webpage CMS and had seen
it being administered by well intending non-professionals is, unless you
have an offer from a graphical designer - don't do it.
It is not trivial to come up with a nice looking, technically sound and
pleasant to browse website (pick two...). Unless you spent some time
designing covers or houses or are sure about your aesthetic values.
Your page is more or less fine - you could perhaps switch to UTF-8, but
unless you actually require non-cp1252 characters, there is no need.
You could do some optimization (both technical and viewer oriented), but
again, probably not worth the effort.
The combination of blue background and black foreground is debatable,
but at least it is not dark blue :-)
Thanks.

I'm not consistent on the color scheme across the site, as you can
observe, but I find the blue background on the home page pleasant.

One consideration for me is that I want to be able to make minor
changes, such as a new "quote of the month" (which in practice is rarely
changes as often as the title implies), myself, instead of relying on
someone else to do it, and I would rather not have to learn new stuff in
order to do it.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-01 00:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Forex, update your website. At the moment, it's static HTML, and
was last cool in 1993. But that was 20 years ago. Any employer
looking at
Bah! Static HTML is still useful as long as it's HTML5 and not just
a bunch of tag soup. The 90's style tag soup source code of Keiths
implies that he's is totally out or touch.
My web page exists to display static content, not to show off how
skilled a webmaster I am or how cool and up to date I am.

Books are still useful even though they only display static content,
and do so in a way that hasn't fundamentally changed for centuries.
It would be absurd to say that a book written in the 1990s needs to
be rewritten, not because of new content, but because fashions in
layout and formatting have changed. And presumably it will need to be
frequently rewritten again and again, forever, as fashions continue
to change.

Someone recently quoted
http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/05/a-commencement-speech-for-graduating-2013-cs-majors.html

When I talk about passion, I mean love. I've been in love with
computers since I was 14 years old,

Me too, for even longer. This means that except when an employer
specifically asks me to do something, I'll do what I find fun,
interesting, and mathematically elegant. I find most web design to
be ugly at best, and a morass of ever-shifting incompatible standards
constantly subject to malware intrusions at worst.

I don't want a website that looks like a casino marquis or like "angry
fruit salad." I don't want a website that berates users for daring to
try to get a glimpse at my wondrous cool excellence with anything but
the latest version of the coolest browser. I don't want a website
that I need to completely rewrite every few years, or that I need to
patch against the latest vulnerabilities every few months.

I want a website that looks like a book, that's as backwards- and
forwards-compatible as a book, that's as immune to exploits as a book,
that works with every version of every browser, and that needs as
little maintenance as a book sitting on a shelf.

If that's not what employers want to hire me for, well, I never tried
to get a job as a webmaster anyway. Sure, I'll do it if someone wants
me to. But my greatest strengths are in programming, math, logic,
algorithms, data structures, and deep subject-matter knowledge in
numerous fields. Plus skills that are useful for nearly all jobs --
punctuality, reliability, flexibility, getting along well with almost
everyone, and good English skills and typing skills.

There's currently little enough demand for such people that even folks
with advanced degrees and clean records are giving up after lengthy
job searches.

And it's not just IT. Most law school graduates are unable to find
law-related jobs. The whole US economy is gradually collapsing, a
slow-motion catastrophe that started about 40 years ago and has been
gradually accelerating.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Cryptoengineer
2013-06-01 02:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Forex, update your website.  At the moment, it's static HTML, and
was last cool in 1993.  But that was 20 years ago.  Any employer
looking at
Bah!  Static HTML is still useful as long as it's HTML5 and not just
a bunch of tag soup.  The 90's style tag soup source code of Keiths
implies that he's is totally out or touch.
My web page exists to display static content, not to show off how
skilled a webmaster I am or how cool and up to date I am.
What you created it for, and how others read it, are not necessarily
the same things. Regardless of what you want them to do, prospective
employers *will* read your web page as an advertisement for yourself.
At the moment, it's an advertisement which says very little to
recommend you. It doesn't have to be that way.

You don't have to get fancy if you're not looking for a Web
development job, but it ought to show you having job-relevant skills
and interests. Here's an example of a simple page that does just that:

http://www.quadibloc.com/

Simple, static HTML, but a hell of a lot more visually appealing than
yours, and it gives an impression of a wide ranging, intelligent, and
curious mind, with many relevant skills. I'm not suggesting <blink>
tags; I'm suggesting some content that makes you look like a good
hire. At the moment, its not there.
.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Someone recently quotedhttp://programming.oreilly.com/2013/05/a-commencement-speech-for-grad...
That was me, but Keith is reluctant to acknowledge that.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
  When I talk about passion, I mean love.  I've been in love with
  computers since I was 14 years old,
Me too, for even longer.  This means that except when an employer
specifically asks me to do something, I'll do what I find fun,
interesting, and mathematically elegant.
...and lose your job.

How about 'I'll do it according to company coding guidelines,
stressing clarity, extensibility, and maintainablity". The job is
bigger than you are, and the last thing an employer wants is opaque
code that can't be updated anyone except the original coder.

pt
Philip Chee
2013-06-01 05:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Forex, update your website. At the moment, it's static HTML, and
was last cool in 1993. But that was 20 years ago. Any employer
looking at
Bah! Static HTML is still useful as long as it's HTML5 and not just
a bunch of tag soup. The 90's style tag soup source code of Keiths
implies that he's is totally out or touch.
My web page exists to display static content, not to show off how
skilled a webmaster I am or how cool and up to date I am.
What you created it for, and how others read it, are not necessarily
the same things. Regardless of what you want them to do, prospective
employers *will* read your web page as an advertisement for yourself.
At the moment, it's an advertisement which says very little to
recommend you. It doesn't have to be that way.
You don't have to get fancy if you're not looking for a Web
development job, but it ought to show you having job-relevant skills
http://www.quadibloc.com/
Simple, static HTML, but a hell of a lot more visually appealing than
yours, and it gives an impression of a wide ranging, intelligent, and
curious mind, with many relevant skills. I'm not suggesting <blink>
tags; I'm suggesting some content that makes you look like a good
hire. At the moment, its not there.
..
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Someone recently quotedhttp://programming.oreilly.com/2013/05/a-commencement-speech-for-grad...
That was me, but Keith is reluctant to acknowledge that.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
When I talk about passion, I mean love. I've been in love with
computers since I was 14 years old,
Me too, for even longer. This means that except when an employer
specifically asks me to do something, I'll do what I find fun,
interesting, and mathematically elegant.
....and lose your job.
As I've said before, Keith is still coding like it was still the 90s
Post by Cryptoengineer
How about 'I'll do it according to company coding guidelines,
stressing clarity, extensibility, and maintainablity". The job is
bigger than you are, and the last thing an employer wants is opaque
code that can't be updated anyone except the original coder.
I think that's called job security no?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-02 21:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Cryptoengineer
How about 'I'll do it according to company coding guidelines,
stressing clarity, extensibility, and maintainablity". The job is
bigger than you are, and the last thing an employer wants is opaque
code that can't be updated anyone except the original coder.
I think that's called job security no?
So *that's* what I've been doing wrong! I've always made it as easy
as possible to replace me. Indeed, I've even made my job look easy,
and my code look simple.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
2013-06-01 08:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Bah! Static HTML is still useful as long as it's HTML5 and not just a
bunch of tag soup. The 90's style tag soup source code of Keiths implies
that he's is totally out or touch. It doesn't matter that Keith thinks
his html is perfectly fine if employers think he's a refugee from the
90s Geocities.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3a%2f%2fwww.keithlynch.net/%2f
(1 Error 4 Warnings)
"No Character Encoding Found! Falling back to UTF-8."
Notice that the w3c falls back to utf-8, and not ASCII nor ISO-8859-1
2. Add some CSS (CSS 2.1 would be suitable). Without CSS Keith's site
looks really amateurish.
My webpage (that dates perhaps to 1994) is static html and no CSS, but
that is due to deliberate choice - and I updated it in 2006 (converted
to UTF-8, xhtml, got rid of fancy new experimental features like
IMGs :-)). I understand that Keith's page "style" is due to his personal
preferences as well - but he'd have to be able to persuade his would-be
employer that he knows better!

Anyway, webpages I wrote for others (my employer) are considerably more
modern, though modest - CSS and all, occasional piece of javascript.
But also some heavily (under the hood) customised CMS stuff and webapps.
Post by Philip Chee
The other thing I've suggested to Keith is to put all the open source
source code he's written on one of the free repository hosting services
such as GitHub and Sourceforge. Signing up is free so it's zero cost to
Keith. Time taken: about as long as it takes him to sign up and push his
code there.
Or he can package the more useful of his utilities as Debian packages
and became a Debian developer - I'd be happy to act as his sponsor.
Alternatively, if Debian is too fancy and novel, he could became active
in the OpenBSD community.
But, unless it becomes a hobby and fun pastime, I would not recommend
this route.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Philip Chee
2013-06-01 11:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
My webpage (that dates perhaps to 1994) is static html and no CSS, but
that is due to deliberate choice - and I updated it in 2006 (converted
to UTF-8, xhtml, got rid of fancy new experimental features like
xhtml was a solution looking for a problem. It was designed by a
committee and it shows. The official sucessor to XHTML 1.0 isn't XHTML2
but HTML5.
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
IMGs :-)). I understand that Keith's page "style" is due to his personal
preferences as well - but he'd have to be able to persuade his would-be
employer that he knows better!
Anyway, webpages I wrote for others (my employer) are considerably more
modern, though modest - CSS and all, occasional piece of javascript.
But also some heavily (under the hood) customised CMS stuff and webapps.
Yes server side templates are useful.
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Philip Chee
The other thing I've suggested to Keith is to put all the open source
source code he's written on one of the free repository hosting services
such as GitHub and Sourceforge. Signing up is free so it's zero cost to
Keith. Time taken: about as long as it takes him to sign up and push his
code there.
Or he can package the more useful of his utilities as Debian packages
and became a Debian developer - I'd be happy to act as his sponsor.
Alternatively, if Debian is too fancy and novel, he could became active
What? The Peoples Republic of Debian is too fancy? I suggest that Keith
start off contributing to a project such as Webkit (or Blink) that is
relatively modern, lots of clean code without a lot of historical
baggage and a strict coding style. Working on such projects should give
Keith enough experience that can be reused at any future employer. And
more importantly working on such high profile projects will tell a
prospective employer that you have the required chops to handle
enterprise class software projects.
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
in the OpenBSD community.
But, unless it becomes a hobby and fun pastime, I would not recommend
this route.
Yes if he wants to go the BSD route he should have a look at Dragonfly
BSD instead.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-01 22:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Anyway, webpages I wrote for others (my employer) are considerably
more modern, though modest - CSS and all, occasional piece of
javascript. But also some heavily (under the hood) customised
CMS stuff and webapps.
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
except perhaps for trusted sites. And of course some browsers don't
even support it, or CSS, or CMS, or webapps. So I think it makes
sense to use the most basic coding necessary to accomplish the task.
In the case of serving static text and images, that most basic form
includes *no* Javascript, CSS, CMS, webapps, or Flash.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Ben Yalow
2013-06-02 05:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Anyway, webpages I wrote for others (my employer) are considerably
more modern, though modest - CSS and all, occasional piece of
javascript. But also some heavily (under the hood) customised
CMS stuff and webapps.
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
except perhaps for trusted sites. And of course some browsers don't
even support it, or CSS, or CMS, or webapps. So I think it makes
sense to use the most basic coding necessary to accomplish the task.
In the case of serving static text and images, that most basic form
includes *no* Javascript, CSS, CMS, webapps, or Flash.
You are aware, of course, of the fact that there has been malware
triggered by displaying a graphic image. So, if you really want to avoid
malware, you need to avoid any images in your web pages.

And never serve any PDFs, since displaying those is known to trigger
malware.

Probably text is OK.

Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
2013-06-02 09:03:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
Not unless it will become the default. Or by definition your "people"
means "people who understand what is going on", which is a small
minority. Most of the people I know do not know what the word
"javascript" means. They do not even know what an "Operating system"
means (frequent real life situation - someone is phoning me that he has
a problem. My question: "what operating system are you using?" Answer:
"Word". Or sometimes "Explorer", or "Samsung" (was written on her monitor) ).
"Vulnerability" is a "virus". "Run a program" will generate blank
stares, ditto for "When you made your last backup?"
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
except perhaps for trusted sites. And of course some browsers don't
even support it, or CSS, or CMS, or webapps. So I think it makes
sense to use the most basic coding necessary to accomplish the task.
In the case of serving static text and images, that most basic form
includes *no* Javascript, CSS, CMS, webapps, or Flash.
I agree - maybe with the exception of CMS, if you want to change the
pages especially by non-skilled editors. My system uses a modified
MoinMoin wiki and webpages are then generated as static HTML (with CSS,
of course, it is expected that the pages will have moderately nice
layout).

The rest are not static pages.
Post by Ben Yalow
You are aware, of course, of the fact that there has been malware
triggered by displaying a graphic image. So, if you really want to avoid
malware, you need to avoid any images in your web pages.
And never serve any PDFs, since displaying those is known to trigger
malware.
Probably text is OK.
UTF-8 malformed sequences did cause some exploits.

The same goes for ASCII codes under 32 hidden in otherwise innocuous
text.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabík http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Ben Yalow
2013-06-02 11:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
Not unless it will become the default. Or by definition your "people"
means "people who understand what is going on", which is a small
minority. Most of the people I know do not know what the word
"javascript" means. They do not even know what an "Operating system"
means (frequent real life situation - someone is phoning me that he has
"Word". Or sometimes "Explorer", or "Samsung" (was written on her monitor) ).
"Vulnerability" is a "virus". "Run a program" will generate blank
stares, ditto for "When you made your last backup?"
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
except perhaps for trusted sites. And of course some browsers don't
even support it, or CSS, or CMS, or webapps. So I think it makes
sense to use the most basic coding necessary to accomplish the task.
In the case of serving static text and images, that most basic form
includes *no* Javascript, CSS, CMS, webapps, or Flash.
I agree - maybe with the exception of CMS, if you want to change the
pages especially by non-skilled editors. My system uses a modified
MoinMoin wiki and webpages are then generated as static HTML (with CSS,
of course, it is expected that the pages will have moderately nice
layout).
The rest are not static pages.
Post by Ben Yalow
You are aware, of course, of the fact that there has been malware
triggered by displaying a graphic image. So, if you really want to avoid
malware, you need to avoid any images in your web pages.
And never serve any PDFs, since displaying those is known to trigger
malware.
Probably text is OK.
UTF-8 malformed sequences did cause some exploits.
The same goes for ASCII codes under 32 hidden in otherwise innocuous
text.
And, of course, links using IDN to get people to go to their sites that
are pretending to be sites that look like other sites.

But I did want to leave Keith with text, as a possible thing that it was
safe to have on a web page he develops, as not being able to have a
malware payload somehow.

I suppose we need to eliminate the web entirely -- there are no known
forms that never have carried malware.

Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
David Friedman
2013-06-02 16:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Yalow
I suppose we need to eliminate the web entirely -- there are no known
forms that never have carried malware.
And similarly eliminate all physical objects, since there are no known
forms that cannot be used in some way as weapons. Starting with all
knives and everything that can be used as a club or garotte, but going
on from there.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Ben Yalow
2013-06-02 21:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
Post by Ben Yalow
I suppose we need to eliminate the web entirely -- there are no known
forms that never have carried malware.
And similarly eliminate all physical objects, since there are no known
forms that cannot be used in some way as weapons. Starting with all
knives and everything that can be used as a club or garotte, but going
on from there.
I think it's foolish to do so.
Post by David Friedman
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
I don't believe that most people leave Javascript off in their browsers,
since (a) I doubt most of them know how, and (b) the ones smart enough to
know how have sensible ways of protecting themselves rather than wasting
time disabling something that very large numbers (almost certainly most)
modern sites use.

People who follow Keith's recommended practices on computer security will
cut themselves off from giant chunks of the web (and, if they follow his
practices of browser/link choice, then they essentially will have only a
tiny peephole into the web, or other Internet resources).

I don't believe other people are that foolish.

Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
David Harmon
2013-06-02 21:23:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 09:29:41 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, David
Post by David Friedman
And similarly eliminate all physical objects, since there are no known
forms that cannot be used in some way as weapons. Starting with all
knives and everything that can be used as a club or garotte, but going
on from there.
Knives are banned on airlines; garrotes apparently are allowed.
Clubs I cannot determine.
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:14:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Harmon
On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 09:29:41 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, David
Post by David Friedman
And similarly eliminate all physical objects, since there are no known
forms that cannot be used in some way as weapons. Starting with all
knives and everything that can be used as a club or garotte, but going
on from there.
Knives are banned on airlines; garrotes apparently are allowed.
Clubs I cannot determine.
Putters, woods, or irons?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Jay E. Morris
2013-06-02 13:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
Not unless it will become the default. Or by definition your "people"
means "people who understand what is going on", which is a small
minority. Most of the people I know do not know what the word
"javascript" means. They do not even know what an "Operating system"
means (frequent real life situation - someone is phoning me that he has
"Word". Or sometimes "Explorer", or "Samsung" (was written on her monitor) ).
"Vulnerability" is a "virus". "Run a program" will generate blank
stares, ditto for "When you made your last backup?"
Wife called me from her work one day because she couldn't get through to
her tech support. Said she had a problem with her hard drive. I asked
noise, reporting errors, what? No, it won't connect. Er, excuse me?
After some moments I figured out by hard drive she meant her computer.
Evidently one of her coworkers always referred to her computer as the
hard drive and it had just spread.

But yeah, I've run into every one that you've mentioned. If a change to
IE, Office, etc has to be made I've got to talk them through the steps
because they have no idea where the options are located.
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
except perhaps for trusted sites. And of course some browsers don't
even support it, or CSS, or CMS, or webapps. So I think it makes
sense to use the most basic coding necessary to accomplish the task.
In the case of serving static text and images, that most basic form
includes *no* Javascript, CSS, CMS, webapps, or Flash.
I agree - maybe with the exception of CMS, if you want to change the
pages especially by non-skilled editors. My system uses a modified
MoinMoin wiki and webpages are then generated as static HTML (with CSS,
of course, it is expected that the pages will have moderately nice
layout).
The rest are not static pages.
Post by Ben Yalow
You are aware, of course, of the fact that there has been malware
triggered by displaying a graphic image. So, if you really want to avoid
malware, you need to avoid any images in your web pages.
And never serve any PDFs, since displaying those is known to trigger
malware.
Probably text is OK.
UTF-8 malformed sequences did cause some exploits.
The same goes for ASCII codes under 32 hidden in otherwise innocuous
text.
Alan Woodford
2013-06-02 14:33:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 08:22:15 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
Not unless it will become the default. Or by definition your "people"
means "people who understand what is going on", which is a small
minority. Most of the people I know do not know what the word
"javascript" means. They do not even know what an "Operating system"
means (frequent real life situation - someone is phoning me that he has
"Word". Or sometimes "Explorer", or "Samsung" (was written on her monitor) ).
"Vulnerability" is a "virus". "Run a program" will generate blank
stares, ditto for "When you made your last backup?"
Wife called me from her work one day because she couldn't get through to
her tech support. Said she had a problem with her hard drive. I asked
noise, reporting errors, what? No, it won't connect. Er, excuse me?
After some moments I figured out by hard drive she meant her computer.
Evidently one of her coworkers always referred to her computer as the
hard drive and it had just spread.
The Computer=Hard Drive thing seems to be faily common at work, to the
point where I stopped trying to argue against it years ago...

However, at least most of our users know whether their machine is
running XP or Vista :-)
Post by Jay E. Morris
But yeah, I've run into every one that you've mentioned. If a change to
IE, Office, etc has to be made I've got to talk them through the steps
because they have no idea where the options are located.
-Most- of our people know the difference beteween the programs and the
OS, even the young Macolyte who will ask me tomorrow, when I go back
to work after a weeks leave, "So when are we getting our work iPhones
and iPads then?"

Even so, if I had a pound for every "How do I set up an out of office
message in Outlook" type query I've had to sort for people, I'd have
lots more money :-)
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
except perhaps for trusted sites. And of course some browsers don't
even support it, or CSS, or CMS, or webapps. So I think it makes
sense to use the most basic coding necessary to accomplish the task.
In the case of serving static text and images, that most basic form
includes *no* Javascript, CSS, CMS, webapps, or Flash.
I agree - maybe with the exception of CMS, if you want to change the
pages especially by non-skilled editors. My system uses a modified
MoinMoin wiki and webpages are then generated as static HTML (with CSS,
of course, it is expected that the pages will have moderately nice
layout).
Our current CMS is better than the previous one we had, but not much.
Let's not go there, for it is a silly place :-)
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
The rest are not static pages.
Post by Ben Yalow
You are aware, of course, of the fact that there has been malware
triggered by displaying a graphic image. So, if you really want to avoid
malware, you need to avoid any images in your web pages.
And never serve any PDFs, since displaying those is known to trigger
malware.
Probably text is OK.
"Delete the System32 folder to speed up your PC..." is plain text, but
if you manage it, your PC will never be the same again :-)
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
UTF-8 malformed sequences did cause some exploits.
The same goes for ASCII codes under 32 hidden in otherwise innocuous
text.
Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman
David V. Loewe, Jr
2013-06-02 20:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Woodford
However, at least most of our users know whether their machine is
running XP or Vista :-)
Windows 7? Windows 8?
--
"What can you do when your dreams come true
And it's not quite like you planned?
What have you done to be losing the one
You held it so tight in your hand?"
Don Henley & Glenn Frey
Alan Woodford
2013-06-03 05:05:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 15:21:02 -0500, "David V. Loewe, Jr"
Post by David V. Loewe, Jr
Post by Alan Woodford
However, at least most of our users know whether their machine is
running XP or Vista :-)
Windows 7? Windows 8?
Figments of a techies deranged imagination :-)

When our IT was outsourced, about 5 years ago, a fair bit of our
mission-critical software wouldn't run, or at least we were told it
wouldn't run, on anything more modern than XP...

Our thousands of desktops and laptops are mostly XP, with a -few-
Vista machines that don't access the main systems.

It is only in the last few months that the majority of users got moved
off IE6 :-O

There is talk of us being dragged kicking and screaming into the W7
era, possibly as soon as the end of the year, but I'll believe it when
I see a W7 startup screen.

IMNSHO, the outsourcing agreement was badly set up, with no real
provision for upgrades, and strangely the people, on both sides, who
set it up have moved on.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe as a result of this, but
it isn't the sort of stuff for an open channel dicussion :-)

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman
David Friedman
2013-06-02 16:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
But yeah, I've run into every one that you've mentioned. If a change to
IE, Office, etc has to be made I've got to talk them through the steps
because they have no idea where the options are located.
I wonder if one could find a similar pattern with older technologies,
such as automobiles--ordinary users having a verbal map of the
technology that fits badly with the map used by insiders.

Going further afield, consider how the meaning of "exponential" has
morphed into "very large."
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Philip Chee
2013-06-02 17:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
Post by Jay E. Morris
But yeah, I've run into every one that you've mentioned. If a change to
IE, Office, etc has to be made I've got to talk them through the steps
because they have no idea where the options are located.
I wonder if one could find a similar pattern with older technologies,
such as automobiles--ordinary users having a verbal map of the
technology that fits badly with the map used by insiders.
Going further afield, consider how the meaning of "exponential" has
morphed into "very large."
I was going to complain about "quantum" but it seems some of the ways it
is used are really valid.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quantum#Noun

# (now chiefly South Asia) The total amount of something; quantity.
[from 17th c.]
# The amount or quantity observably present, or available. [from 18th c.]
# (physics) The smallest possible, and therefore indivisible, unit of a
given quantity or quantifiable phenomenon. [from 20th c.]

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Philip Chee
2013-06-02 13:35:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Jun 2013 09:03:57 +0000 (UTC),
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Until the constant barrage of malware vulnerabilities is resolved,
most (?) people will leave Javascript disabled on their browsers,
Not unless it will become the default. Or by definition your "people"
means "people who understand what is going on", which is a small
minority. Most of the people I know do not know what the word
"javascript" means. They do not even know what an "Operating system"
means (frequent real life situation - someone is phoning me that he has
"Word". Or sometimes "Explorer", or "Samsung" (was written on her monitor) ).
"Vulnerability" is a "virus". "Run a program" will generate blank
stares, ditto for "When you made your last backup?"
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
except perhaps for trusted sites. And of course some browsers don't
even support it, or CSS, or CMS, or webapps. So I think it makes
sense to use the most basic coding necessary to accomplish the task.
In the case of serving static text and images, that most basic form
includes *no* Javascript, CSS, CMS, webapps, or Flash.
I agree - maybe with the exception of CMS, if you want to change the
pages especially by non-skilled editors. My system uses a modified
MoinMoin wiki and webpages are then generated as static HTML (with CSS,
of course, it is expected that the pages will have moderately nice
layout).
The rest are not static pages.
Post by Ben Yalow
You are aware, of course, of the fact that there has been malware
triggered by displaying a graphic image. So, if you really want to avoid
malware, you need to avoid any images in your web pages.
And never serve any PDFs, since displaying those is known to trigger
malware.
Probably text is OK.
UTF-8 malformed sequences did cause some exploits.
Mozilla has dropped support for UTF-7.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=414064

"UTF-7 is only used to demo XSS holes and isn't used for live web
content. Even the authors of UTF-7 agree"
Post by g***@kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk
The same goes for ASCII codes under 32 hidden in otherwise innocuous
text.
Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
David Dyer-Bennet
2013-05-31 05:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
Have you considered the possibility that the reason you can't get a
job in the tech sector is because your tech skills have gone stale?
Yes, of course I have, and of course they have. Everyone's has. I
learn new things every day, but nobody is capable of staying up to
date on everything. If an employer asks me to get caught up on
something, I will, of course. And I'll do it on my own time.
I think your skills are a lot more stale than you think -- that is, it
would take many months of work to really get up to professional level in
one of the modern areas of software development. Maybe more; what can
you show on your resume in object-oriented programming?

The web dates to the early 1990s, I started developing web pages around
1993, worked at a web startup from 1996-2000, and was briefly at another
just now, and would describe my web skills as a bit outdated now. I
don't write Javascript (beyond trivial hacks to stock code), I've only
done a little with AJAX and JSon, and I'm not expert at *any* of the
PHP-based website frameworks, for example.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
If a cat claims to be starving, but turns up its nose at every kind
of food, I'll be skeptical that it's really starving. Naturally the
animal can find something wrong with any food, if it's picky enough.
But that's strong evidence against hunger.
Again, it isn't just me. It's the majority of IT people I know, most
of whom have clean records and advanced degrees. And it's not just
people I know, or just people who live in this area. This "paradox"
has been widely reported in the news.
I sure know a lot of people working software jobs here. Everything from
support jobs to co-founder at a major Silicon Valley startup. I can
think of three people who left tech -- one to become a writer, one to
work on a master's in public policy, and one who actually had trouble
getting a job.

I've also been following the hiring side some places, and it's *not*
easy to find good applicants. Many reports say the software field is
currently in pretty good shape.
--
Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
Philip Chee
2013-05-31 10:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
I think your skills are a lot more stale than you think -- that is, it
would take many months of work to really get up to professional level in
one of the modern areas of software development. Maybe more; what can
you show on your resume in object-oriented programming?
A lot of stuff can't be learnt from books because the people at the
cutting edge who would have been writing books in past decades are now
writing blog posts instead.
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
The web dates to the early 1990s, I started developing web pages around
1993, worked at a web startup from 1996-2000, and was briefly at another
just now, and would describe my web skills as a bit outdated now. I
don't write Javascript (beyond trivial hacks to stock code), I've only
done a little with AJAX and JSon, and I'm not expert at *any* of the
I think JSON is spelt with all caps.
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
PHP-based website frameworks, for example.
PHP is t3h 3v1l! Be nice to the web and use something like django instead.
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Keith F. Lynch
If a cat claims to be starving, but turns up its nose at every kind
of food, I'll be skeptical that it's really starving. Naturally the
animal can find something wrong with any food, if it's picky enough.
But that's strong evidence against hunger.
Again, it isn't just me. It's the majority of IT people I know, most
of whom have clean records and advanced degrees. And it's not just
people I know, or just people who live in this area. This "paradox"
has been widely reported in the news.
First I've heard of this. Which news? URLs please? As far as I know the
only problematic area is the low end grungy sysadmin job market.
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
I sure know a lot of people working software jobs here. Everything from
support jobs to co-founder at a major Silicon Valley startup. I can
think of three people who left tech -- one to become a writer, one to
work on a master's in public policy, and one who actually had trouble
getting a job.
I've also been following the hiring side some places, and it's *not*
easy to find good applicants. Many reports say the software field is
currently in pretty good shape.
Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
David Dyer-Bennet
2013-05-31 16:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
I think your skills are a lot more stale than you think -- that is, it
would take many months of work to really get up to professional level in
one of the modern areas of software development. Maybe more; what can
you show on your resume in object-oriented programming?
A lot of stuff can't be learnt from books because the people at the
cutting edge who would have been writing books in past decades are now
writing blog posts instead.
Yes, there's some of that.
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
The web dates to the early 1990s, I started developing web pages around
1993, worked at a web startup from 1996-2000, and was briefly at another
just now, and would describe my web skills as a bit outdated now. I
don't write Javascript (beyond trivial hacks to stock code), I've only
done a little with AJAX and JSon, and I'm not expert at *any* of the
I think JSON is spelt with all caps.
Right, sorry.
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
PHP-based website frameworks, for example.
PHP is t3h 3v1l! Be nice to the web and use something like django instead.
In terms of saleable skills....

Hmm, Python-based framework? Does sound interesting.

So long as it's less violent than the film resulting from its
unchaining!
--
Googleproofaddress(account:dd-b provider:dd-b domain:net)
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
David V. Loewe, Jr
2013-05-31 18:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
I think your skills are a lot more stale than you think -- that is, it
would take many months of work to really get up to professional level in
one of the modern areas of software development. Maybe more; what can
you show on your resume in object-oriented programming?
A lot of stuff can't be learnt from books because the people at the
cutting edge who would have been writing books in past decades are now
writing blog posts instead.
Yes, there's some of that.
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
The web dates to the early 1990s, I started developing web pages around
1993, worked at a web startup from 1996-2000, and was briefly at another
just now, and would describe my web skills as a bit outdated now. I
don't write Javascript (beyond trivial hacks to stock code), I've only
done a little with AJAX and JSon, and I'm not expert at *any* of the
I think JSON is spelt with all caps.
Right, sorry.
Post by Philip Chee
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
PHP-based website frameworks, for example.
PHP is t3h 3v1l! Be nice to the web and use something like django instead.
In terms of saleable skills....
Hmm, Python-based framework? Does sound interesting.
So long as it's less violent than the film resulting from its
unchaining!
A not safe for work cam site I've been observing is advertising that
they are looking for people who can do Python and Django remotely.
--
"The limit of the willing suspension of disbelief for a given element is
directly proportional to its degree of coolness."
- TV Tropes
David Friedman
2013-05-31 19:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David V. Loewe, Jr
"The limit of the willing suspension of disbelief for a given element is
directly proportional to its degree of coolness."
- TV Tropes
Which, at a considerable tangent, raises a point possibly useful for
worldbuilding. Not about WSOD or coolness but about TV Tropes.

As best I can tell, a large part of my younger son's knowledge of
literature comes from that site, meaning that he knows about a lot of
books he hasn't read. Think of it as the modern equivalent of Cliff
notes. One could use that--a character who appears well read but has
actually read almost none of the books he fluently discusses.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Keith F. Lynch
2013-05-31 23:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Philip Chee
A lot of stuff can't be learnt from books because the people at the
cutting edge who would have been writing books in past decades are
now writing blog posts instead.
I read a lot of books, but I read even more blog posts.
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Philip Chee
PHP is t3h 3v1l! Be nice to the web and use something like django
instead.
In terms of saleable skills....
Hmm, Python-based framework? Does sound interesting.
So long as it's less violent than the film resulting from its
unchaining!
Am I the only one who immediately objected that dynamite hadn't been
invented yet?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
David Friedman
2013-05-31 19:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
A lot of stuff can't be learnt from books because the people at the
cutting edge who would have been writing books in past decades are now
writing blog posts instead.
Interesting more general issue. I write both, and have probably put more
time into blogs in recent years. Partly the incentive is that an essay
is easier than a book. A book's worth of essays are probably easier than
a book, since you don't have to worry about tying them all together.

What I'm not sure of is their relative effectiveness for spreading
ideas. My most successful (non-fiction) book probably sold thirty to
forty thousand copies in English, plus some more in translation--I
haven't kept careful track. My blog gets about two thousand page
views/day.

The first problem is that some page views may be web spiders, and some
people reading the blog, probably a good many, do it through aggregators
(I use Shrook), which I think don't report the pageview unless the
person goes on to read the post from the blog.

Suppose I assume those effects cancel. If those two thousand page views
are all the same two thousand people checking the blog every day, then
I'm reaching a lot fewer people than with a book. But I don't post every
day, or close to it, so if I assume that people are using an aggregator
to spot new posts and only reading those, but it's all the same people,
that gets me up to six thousand or so.

I've made a total of 921 posts. If I assume the average is 700 words,
that's the equivalent of about six books. I made them over a period of
about seven years, so call it about a book a year worth of posts.

I seem to have averaged about a post every three days. If I assume each
pageview consists of one reader reading one post, that means I have
about six thousand readers, which is probably below my average for
books, but only by about a factor of two. On the other hand, if I assume
that a pageview consists of a reader catching up on the blog and reading
several posts, that gets the number of people reading each word about to
the level of a book.

All very imprecise, with lots of room for error in either direction. Any
suggestions for how I could get a better estimate of how many people
read each post, which is probably the key number?

And all of this ignores the fact that I can (and do) web books as well
as publishing them in print or eBook form. Checking my web site
statistics (separate form my blog), my first book, which although not
the biggest seller is almost certainly the one that had the largest
effect in spreading ideas, was downloaded (it's up as a free pdf) 2503
times this month. I'm sure that considerably overstates how many people
read it, but it suggests that I may be getting more readers that way
than through book sales.

Coming back to the beginning of this, I wonder to what extent the
non-profit book business is getting replaced by blogs, and what the
effects of that are likely to be. A possible element in sf worldbuilding.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Keith F. Lynch
2013-05-31 23:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
The first problem is that some page views may be web spiders, and
some people reading the blog, probably a good many, do it through
aggregators (I use Shrook), which I think don't report the pageview
unless the person goes on to read the post from the blog.
A rough heuristic is that if the IP address also looked at robots.txt,
it's a robot, and if it also looked at favicon.ico, it's a person.

That won't help with aggregators, of course.
Post by David Friedman
Suppose I assume those effects cancel. If those two thousand page
views are all the same two thousand people checking the blog every
day, then I'm reaching a lot fewer people than with a book.
You could check how many distinct IP addresses look at it, excluding
robots. (Again, this is a very rough heuristic. For instance the
2000+ Panix users share three IP addresses.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-01 01:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Maybe more; what can you show on your resume in object-oriented
programming?
I've been using C++ off and on for more than a quarter century, and
Smalltalk a decade before that. Other than that, not much.

I played around with alternative programming paradigms before they
were cool. I have experience with well over half the paradigms
mentioned on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm
The web dates to the early 1990s, I started developing web pages
around 1993,
1992 in my case, but who's counting? I don't like where web design
has gone, so I don't keep up and don't apply for web-coding jobs.
Peter and Philip talk about webmastering as if they think that's the
whole of IT. Perhaps they do think that.
I sure know a lot of people working software jobs here.
I know a lot of such people too. So? That's not evidence that
there's a critical shortage of such people. Rather the opposite.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Andy Leighton
2013-06-01 10:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Maybe more; what can you show on your resume in object-oriented
programming?
I've been using C++ off and on for more than a quarter century, and
Smalltalk a decade before that. Other than that, not much.
C++ has moved on quite a bit since it first appeared. Templates, STL,
lambdas, automatic type deduction, smart pointers, etc.

True, old C++03 code still compiles and runs OK (well nearly always)
however C++11 changes the styles and idioms you should use when writing
code. I know the C++ I wrote in the late 90s looks and reads totally
different to the C++ I've seen written recently by people I know who
work with that language.

We are still expecting another version of C++ spec next year. But there
are still goodies being planned beyond that. Stuff like concepts and
reflection are still being worked on, and there may well be a TR on
concepts-lite (which is the constraints bit of concepts).
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I played around with alternative programming paradigms before they
were cool. I have experience with well over half the paradigms
mentioned on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm
But being a good programmer is being able to right idiomatic code
in a particular language (and paradigm). Not just "play around"
with a language and get it to do someting.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
The web dates to the early 1990s, I started developing web pages
around 1993,
1992 in my case, but who's counting? I don't like where web design
has gone, so I don't keep up and don't apply for web-coding jobs.
Peter and Philip talk about webmastering as if they think that's the
whole of IT. Perhaps they do think that.
Well you are equally dismissive of GUIs, of mobile phones. When you
throw out the majority of the industry as being "not for you" you are
severely limiting your options. Many in-house corporate systems are
also implemented using HTML interfaces these days. Also for larger
html-based systems then there is often some specialisation with some
people concentrating on the back end and others concentrating on the
front end.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Philip Chee
2013-06-01 12:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Leighton
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Maybe more; what can you show on your resume in object-oriented
programming?
I've been using C++ off and on for more than a quarter century, and
Smalltalk a decade before that. Other than that, not much.
C++ has moved on quite a bit since it first appeared. Templates, STL,
lambdas,
automatic type deduction,
Isn't that called Type Inference?
Post by Andy Leighton
smart pointers, etc.
nullptr s enum s
Post by Andy Leighton
True, old C++03 code still compiles and runs OK (well nearly always)
however C++11 changes the styles and idioms you should use when writing
code. I know the C++ I wrote in the late 90s looks and reads totally
different to the C++ I've seen written recently by people I know who
work with that language.
I think Keith is still using pre-standards K&R C
Post by Andy Leighton
We are still expecting another version of C++ spec next year. But there
are still goodies being planned beyond that. Stuff like concepts and
reflection are still being worked on, and there may well be a TR on
Hmm I thought reflection was mostly used in interpreted languages like
Javascript? Being able to do introspection in your code is quite
convenient I agree.
Post by Andy Leighton
concepts-lite (which is the constraints bit of concepts).
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I played around with alternative programming paradigms before they
were cool. I have experience with well over half the paradigms
mentioned on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_paradigm
But being a good programmer is being able to right idiomatic code
in a particular language (and paradigm). Not just "play around"
with a language and get it to do something.
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that you should.
Post by Andy Leighton
Post by Keith F. Lynch
The web dates to the early 1990s, I started developing web pages
around 1993,
1992 in my case, but who's counting? I don't like where web design
has gone, so I don't keep up and don't apply for web-coding jobs.
Peter and Philip talk about webmastering as if they think that's the
whole of IT. Perhaps they do think that.
Don't be silly Keith. The reason I mention web development is that it's
a relatively easy way to get your foot in the door. After being away for
so long you need some recent activity to flesh out your c.v.
Post by Andy Leighton
Well you are equally dismissive of GUIs, of mobile phones. When you
throw out the majority of the industry as being "not for you" you are
severely limiting your options. Many in-house corporate systems are
also implemented using HTML interfaces these days. Also for larger
html-based systems then there is often some specialisation with some
people concentrating on the back end and others concentrating on the
front end.
Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Andy Leighton
2013-06-01 12:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Andy Leighton
We are still expecting another version of C++ spec next year. But there
are still goodies being planned beyond that. Stuff like concepts and
reflection are still being worked on, and there may well be a TR on
Hmm I thought reflection was mostly used in interpreted languages like
Javascript? Being able to do introspection in your code is quite
convenient I agree.
Reflection as a named concept came with Java and is also shared with C#.
However I think you can also do it with Objective C and Haskell and many
other languages - not just interpreted languages.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-01 22:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
I think Keith is still using pre-standards K&R C
Isn't K&R a standard? Yes, I use the lowest common denominator except
when there's a good reason not to.
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Andy Leighton
But being a good programmer is being able to right idiomatic code
in a particular language (and paradigm). Not just "play around"
with a language and get it to do something.
I agree. I use "play around" to mean get a feel for the language
and its strengths and weaknesses. The differences in idiom are what
makes this interesting. Simply getting it to print "hello world" by
pretending it's Fortran is of little interest to me.
Post by Philip Chee
Don't be silly Keith. The reason I mention web development is that
it's a relatively easy way to get your foot in the door.
I think I should play to my strengths, not my weaknesses. My
weaknesses include marketing and graphic design, and web development
is mostly the latter. I'm not interested in "getting my foot in the
door" if it means pretending I'm 18 and have no experience.
Post by Philip Chee
After being away for so long you need some recent activity to flesh
out your c.v.
I've only been away from *paying* IT work.
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Andy Leighton
Well you are equally dismissive of GUIs,
My mind doesn't work that way. See above about strengths and
weaknesses.
Post by Philip Chee
of mobile phones.
I'm not dismissive of mobile phones, but I don't have one to play
with. And I don't have a good feel for what phone users want, or
for what they already have.
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Andy Leighton
When you throw out the majority of the industry as being "not
for you" ...
Everyone throws out the majority of the industry. It's much too
large for any one person to master. Decades ago I was a computer
generalist. I am no longer a computer generalist, as there are
no longer any computer generalists. This is the age of computer
specialists.

You've found a niche that's a good fit for you. I expect that within
a year or three, unless the US economy completely collapses, I will do
the same. But I won't think that my niche is the whole of the field,
or even the most important part of it. Whether it's the coolest part,
I'll leave to the arbiters of coolness.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Philip Chee
2013-06-02 05:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
Don't be silly Keith. The reason I mention web development is that
it's a relatively easy way to get your foot in the door.
I think I should play to my strengths, not my weaknesses. My
weaknesses include marketing and graphic design, and web development
is mostly the latter. I'm not interested in "getting my foot in the
Um. No it isn't mostly graphic design. What happens is that the UX team
designs how the website is supposed to look and also generate the images
to use. Then this spec is passed to the webdev team to write the backend
server code that generates the html/css/js on the fly. Sometimes the UX
people are part of the webdev team.

I've already mentioned Django. You might want to look at Node.js and
other webdev frameworks.

You mentioned webmaster(ing). I haven't heard that word used (or
written) for ages. I don't even know if it's a separate job position
these days. Usually someone in the sysadmin team gets to manage the
Apache servers and keep the backend database humming. If you get
slasdotted the IT guy might spin up more read-only slaves to handle the
load. He might even add additional load balancers. That's what I think
of when someone mentions "webmaster".
Post by Keith F. Lynch
door" if it means pretending I'm 18 and have no experience.
So the only reason you aren't gainfully employed in the tech sector is
that you're too picky?
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
After being away for so long you need some recent activity to flesh
out your c.v.
I've only been away from *paying* IT work.
How much non paying IT work is suitable to put in your c.v.?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Andy Leighton
2013-06-02 08:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
Don't be silly Keith. The reason I mention web development is that
it's a relatively easy way to get your foot in the door.
I think I should play to my strengths, not my weaknesses. My
weaknesses include marketing and graphic design, and web development
is mostly the latter. I'm not interested in "getting my foot in the
Um. No it isn't mostly graphic design. What happens is that the UX team
designs how the website is supposed to look and also generate the images
to use. Then this spec is passed to the webdev team to write the backend
server code that generates the html/css/js on the fly.
That is changing somewhat. A number of modern apps are SPA and a lot of
the code is on the front-end. But it is still fairly similar code in
intent - only written in javscript. TBH a number of apps do have
static html/css/js with embedded templating and a hefty back-end
typically written in java/c#/python/ruby.
Post by Philip Chee
I've already mentioned Django. You might want to look at Node.js and
other webdev frameworks.
Well node.js isn't really a webdev framework. It is an event-driven
server-side environment. It can be used with web frameworks (such
as angular.js) of course but it isn't limited to web applications.
It is quite possible to write desktop (or even command line) apps
using node.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-02 21:11:22 UTC
Permalink
You mentioned webmaster(ing). I haven't heard that word used (or
written) for ages.
What's the author and maintaner of a website called these days, then?
And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
So the only reason you aren't gainfully employed in the tech sector
is that you're too picky?
"Picky" in the sense that I don't apply for every tech job advertised,
including ones too far to commute to, ones that require a skill I
don't have and can't quickly get, and ones that require a credential
(e.g. a security clearance) I don't have and can't get.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Mark Hertel
2013-06-02 22:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
You mentioned webmaster(ing). I haven't heard that word used (or
written) for ages.
What's the author and maintaner of a website called these days, then?
And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer. My team creates and maintains the software that
generates the website. We use python, but there are other languages to
use out there.

The IT guys keep the hardware and internet connection going, but the
actual websites are implemented by software engineers.



--Mark
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-02 22:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.

Someone can maintain a club's website, which may consist of little
more than updating it with the date and location of the next club
meeting, without knowing how to calculate tensions and compressions in
a bridge, or how to design, build, and calibrate a radio transmitter,
or even how to write a computer program to calculate prime numbers.

Also, I think the standard role address is still ***@site,
not ***@site.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Scott Dorsey
2013-06-02 22:50:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer" used to
mean in the eighties.

"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did in the
eighties.

It is an unfortunate shift.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
David Friedman
2013-06-03 01:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer" used to
mean in the eighties.
"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did in the
eighties.
I don't think that answers Keith's original question. If you are looking
for the maintainer of a web site, you don't ask the firm whose site it
is who their software engineer is, since that description might apply to
lots of people who have nothing to do with their web site.

"Webmaster" sounds to me like a plausible answer, but I don't know if
it's the current one. For the SCA West Kingdom site, it's "Web Minister."
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Jay E. Morris
2013-06-03 02:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer" used to
mean in the eighties.
"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did in the
eighties.
I don't think that answers Keith's original question. If you are looking
for the maintainer of a web site, you don't ask the firm whose site it
is who their software engineer is, since that description might apply to
lots of people who have nothing to do with their web site.
"Webmaster" sounds to me like a plausible answer, but I don't know if
it's the current one. For the SCA West Kingdom site, it's "Web Minister."
For a large organization.
System admins who maintain the server OS and web server software.
SQL admins who maintain the data back side.
Coders who do pages. At our place this is, I believe, mainly C# with
Silverlight as the framework.
Content providers.
David Friedman
2013-06-03 02:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by David Friedman
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer" used to
mean in the eighties.
"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did in the
eighties.
I don't think that answers Keith's original question. If you are looking
for the maintainer of a web site, you don't ask the firm whose site it
is who their software engineer is, since that description might apply to
lots of people who have nothing to do with their web site.
"Webmaster" sounds to me like a plausible answer, but I don't know if
it's the current one. For the SCA West Kingdom site, it's "Web Minister."
For a large organization.
System admins who maintain the server OS and web server software.
SQL admins who maintain the data back side.
Coders who do pages. At our place this is, I believe, mainly C# with
Silverlight as the framework.
Content providers.
Suppose I notice a problem on a web site-a broken link, say. What's the
likely title of the person I should report it to?
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
_Salamander_: http://tinyurl.com/6957y7e
_How to Milk an Almond,..._ http://tinyurl.com/63xg8gx
Jay E. Morris
2013-06-03 02:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by David Friedman
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer" used to
mean in the eighties.
"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did in the
eighties.
I don't think that answers Keith's original question. If you are looking
for the maintainer of a web site, you don't ask the firm whose site it
is who their software engineer is, since that description might apply to
lots of people who have nothing to do with their web site.
"Webmaster" sounds to me like a plausible answer, but I don't know if
it's the current one. For the SCA West Kingdom site, it's "Web Minister."
For a large organization.
System admins who maintain the server OS and web server software.
SQL admins who maintain the data back side.
Coders who do pages. At our place this is, I believe, mainly C# with
Silverlight as the framework.
Content providers.
Suppose I notice a problem on a web site-a broken link, say. What's the
likely title of the person I should report it to?
***@us.af.mil

xxxxx being, usually, the division name.
Jay E. Morris
2013-06-03 02:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by David Friedman
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by David Friedman
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer" used to
mean in the eighties.
"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did in the
eighties.
I don't think that answers Keith's original question. If you are looking
for the maintainer of a web site, you don't ask the firm whose site it
is who their software engineer is, since that description might apply to
lots of people who have nothing to do with their web site.
"Webmaster" sounds to me like a plausible answer, but I don't know if
it's the current one. For the SCA West Kingdom site, it's "Web Minister."
For a large organization.
System admins who maintain the server OS and web server software.
SQL admins who maintain the data back side.
Coders who do pages. At our place this is, I believe, mainly C# with
Silverlight as the framework.
Content providers.
Suppose I notice a problem on a web site-a broken link, say. What's the
likely title of the person I should report it to?
xxxxx being, usually, the division name.
Should have added, they will determine who the page owner is and refer it.
Doug Wickström
2013-06-03 10:00:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 21:54:06 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
Post by Jay E. Morris
xxxxx being, usually, the division name.
Nope.

The domain, for example, is af.mil; af.us doesn't have a web
site, afaik, and is strictly for e-mail called "e-mail for life."

And USAF doesn't have divisions.

I have, among my other work addresses,
***@ang.af.mil

(address munged for security/antispam reasons)

There is usually a separate address for web site issues versus
general network issues. The helpdesk address is for general
network issues and is meant to be used internally.
--
Doug Wickström
Jay E. Morris
2013-06-03 11:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickström
On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 21:54:06 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
Post by Jay E. Morris
xxxxx being, usually, the division name.
Nope.
The domain, for example, is af.mil; af.us doesn't have a web
site, afaik, and is strictly for e-mail called "e-mail for life."
Correct, but he asked for an email address. BTW, there is a push to
consolidate all exchange servers are DISA in which case us.af.mil will
become mail.mil. I know the Army is already there.
Post by Doug Wickström
And USAF doesn't have divisions.
I was civilianizing it. But
My FOA
My Directorate
My Division
My Branch

If I'd had said xxxxx usually being the Field Operating Agency I would
have had to translate that.
Post by Doug Wickström
I have, among my other work addresses,
And mine is us.af.mil. My admin account doesn't get it's own address.
Post by Doug Wickström
(address munged for security/antispam reasons)
There is usually a separate address for web site issues versus
general network issues. The helpdesk address is for general
network issues and is meant to be used internally.
Actually there is one AF-wide help desk (ESD)* for all computer issues,
tickets just get routed to the local tech. Depending upon the time of
day I might be talking to the desk in Germany.

But because of the programs we maintain and the size of our FOA we do
have our own help desk. The actual email address isn't on our forward
facing website though, there's a contact form. It just routes to our
help desk.

*Yes, this doesn't mean that the user just doesn't call up the local
tech instead of ESD but it's not suppose to happen that way. Tracking
and accounting and all that stuff.
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-03 02:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Suppose I notice a problem on a web site-a broken link, say. What's
the likely title of the person I should report it to?
<sarcasm>
Obviously any report of a broken link should only be looked at by
someone who has spent at least 17 years in school, (K-12 plus a
four-year engineering degree), and mastered statics, dynamics,
electronics, design, architecture, and computer science. Maybe
we'd better include law and medicine just to be safe. And of
course passed a rigorous test in all of these subjects, and most
importnatly paid the appropriate state licensing fees.
</sarcasm>
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Alan Woodford
2013-06-03 05:18:56 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 3 Jun 2013 02:59:34 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Suppose I notice a problem on a web site-a broken link, say. What's
the likely title of the person I should report it to?
<sarcasm>
Obviously any report of a broken link should only be looked at by
someone who has spent at least 17 years in school, (K-12 plus a
four-year engineering degree), and mastered statics, dynamics,
electronics, design, architecture, and computer science. Maybe
we'd better include law and medicine just to be safe. And of
course passed a rigorous test in all of these subjects, and most
importnatly paid the appropriate state licensing fees.
</sarcasm>
In my employers case, you can report it to the Contact Centre, (whose
email and phone contact details are at the bottom of every page) and
they will pass it on to the correct people to get it fixed. And they
do - I occasionally get such messages about the pages I maintain the
content of.

Surely, if the staff are trained properly, it makes sense to have a
single point of contact, rather than a non-techie having to figure out
which department of a large organisation they need?

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by David Friedman
I don't think that answers Keith's original question. If you are looking
for the maintainer of a web site, you don't ask the firm whose site it
is who their software engineer is, since that description might apply to
lots of people who have nothing to do with their web site.
"Webmaster" sounds to me like a plausible answer, but I don't know if
it's the current one. For the SCA West Kingdom site, it's "Web Minister."
For a large organization.
System admins who maintain the server OS and web server software.
SQL admins who maintain the data back side.
Coders who do pages. At our place this is, I believe, mainly C# with
Silverlight as the framework.
Content providers.
Er, wot? Silverlight is obsolescent if not obsolete. Even Microsoft
dis-recommends Silverlight.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-03 02:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer"
used to mean in the eighties.
Again, in several states you can't legally call yourself an engineer
unless you have an engineering degree and have passed engineering
tests. Most programmers and webmasters don't have engineering
degrees.

Also, in my experience a webmaster isn't typically a programmer. It's
a very different skill set. Webmasters have to know HTML and maybe
CSS, but they don't typically need to know anything about algorithms
or data structures, at least for static or manually-updated web pages.
Post by Scott Dorsey
"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did
in the eighties.
I've never been clear on what that meant. I've generally been listed
as programmer/analyst, and I've construed the latter as meaning I can
read and understand programs written by others. I've also been a
sysadmin -- someone who keeps a computer running and supports its
users. There are also operators or "tape apes" who make backups late
at night.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
Keith, "Software Engineer" today means the same thing "Programmer" used to
mean in the eighties.
"Programmer" today means something like what "Systems Analyst" did in the
eighties.
It is an unfortunate shift.
--scott
And what does "System Analyst" mean these days?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Mark Hertel
2013-06-03 02:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
I think the issue in those states is calling yourself a "Professional
Engineer".



--Mark
Keith F. Lynch
2013-06-03 02:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Hertel
I think the issue in those states is calling yourself a
"Professional Engineer".
No. See, for instance:

http://ww2.gazette.net/stories/061307/montnew43305_32367.shtml

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=235838

http://www.electronicsweekly.com/made-by-monkeys/legal/when-is-an-engineer-not-an-eng-2008-10/

http://machinedesign.com/engineering-education/hijacking-engineering-profession

(If anyone's newsreader runs these URLs together despite my leaving a
blank line between them, I'll gladly support a motion to expel its
author from the ranks of software engineers.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Michael Benveniste
2013-06-03 03:37:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
I think the issue in those states is calling yourself a
"Professional Engineer".
http://ww2.gazette.net/stories/061307/montnew43305_32367.shtml
This link supports Mark's claim. Quoting the article rather than the
headline:

[Y]ou must cease and desist representing yourself as a professional
engineer in the State of Maryland and change any business cards,
letterhead or advertisements accordingly.”

The state-run University of Maryland University College offers a
certificate program in software engineering:

http://www.umuc.edu/academic-programs/certificates/software-engineering-graduate-certificate.cfm
Post by Keith F. Lynch
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=235838
This is a discussion about Illinois law. In 1998 an Illinois case
held Novell didn't violate this law by use of the term "Certified
NetWare Engineer," stating "the Act must be construed as banning only
those uses of the title 'engineer' that imply licensure by the State as
a professional engineer."

http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/1998/10/pr98121.html

The state-run University of Illinois also offers a certificate program
in software engineering:

http://www.online.uillinois.edu/catalog/ProgramDetail.asp?ProgramID=450
Post by Keith F. Lynch
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/made-by-monkeys/legal/when-is-an-engineer-not-an-eng-2008-10/
References and discusses the same article.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
http://machinedesign.com/engineering-education/hijacking-engineering-profession
Same Illinois law, same precedent, same analysis.
--
Mike Benveniste -- ***@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Hertel
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Mark Hertel
What's the author and maintainer of a website called these days,
then? And are you sure it's the same in the US as where you live?
Software engineer.
Sounds like title inflation to me. Not to mention that in several US
states it's illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you have an
engineering degree and have passed rigorous tests.
I think the issue in those states is calling yourself a "Professional
Engineer".
So there is no law preventing you from calling yourself an
Unprofessional Engineer or even an Unorthodox Engineer?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Andy Leighton
2013-06-02 08:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
I think Keith is still using pre-standards K&R C
Isn't K&R a standard? Yes, I use the lowest common denominator except
when there's a good reason not to.
No. Well a de-facto one I suppose. It isn't a standard like ANSI C
is a standard. There are a few differences between C89 and K&R -
function prototypes being the main one. I would note that K&R
was re-issued in an ANSI compliant version.

There are more differences between K&R and C11. For example gets()
has been removed from the language. C99 introduced many decent
enhancements - variable-length arrays, new data types, variadic macros,
and more.

I would be astonished if many people were using C compilers that did
not support C99 in any other than a full retro-computing environment.
I cannot remember the last time I saw any pre-ANSI style C.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Philip Chee
2013-06-02 13:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Leighton
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
I think Keith is still using pre-standards K&R C
Isn't K&R a standard? Yes, I use the lowest common denominator except
when there's a good reason not to.
No. Well a de-facto one I suppose. It isn't a standard like ANSI C
is a standard. There are a few differences between C89 and K&R -
function prototypes being the main one. I would note that K&R
was re-issued in an ANSI compliant version.
There are more differences between K&R and C11. For example gets()
has been removed from the language. C99 introduced many decent
enhancements - variable-length arrays, new data types, variadic macros,
and more.
I would be astonished if many people were using C compilers that did
not support C99 in any other than a full retro-computing environment.
I cannot remember the last time I saw any pre-ANSI style C.
As I understand it, the C compiler (not C++) that comes with Microsoft
Visual Studio only does C89 and MS has stated that they don't intend to
support C99 or any newer standard. Of course in practice most people
just use VC in C++ mode.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Andy Leighton
2013-06-02 14:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Andy Leighton
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Philip Chee
I think Keith is still using pre-standards K&R C
Isn't K&R a standard? Yes, I use the lowest common denominator except
when there's a good reason not to.
No. Well a de-facto one I suppose. It isn't a standard like ANSI C
is a standard. There are a few differences between C89 and K&R -
function prototypes being the main one. I would note that K&R
was re-issued in an ANSI compliant version.
There are more differences between K&R and C11. For example gets()
has been removed from the language. C99 introduced many decent
enhancements - variable-length arrays, new data types, variadic macros,
and more.
I would be astonished if many people were using C compilers that did
not support C99 in any other than a full retro-computing environment.
I cannot remember the last time I saw any pre-ANSI style C.
As I understand it, the C compiler (not C++) that comes with Microsoft
Visual Studio only does C89 and MS has stated that they don't intend to
support C99 or any newer standard. Of course in practice most people
just use VC in C++ mode.
Ahh well. I haven't written C/C++ on a Microsoft OS in ages.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
David Harmon
2013-06-02 21:23:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 01:16:33 +0000 (UTC) in rec.arts.sf.fandom,
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I've been using C++ off and on for more than a quarter century, and
So, your C++ knowledge is 25 years out of date? When did you last
answer a question in comp.lang.c++?
Philip Chee
2013-06-03 06:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Harmon
On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 01:16:33 +0000 (UTC) in rec.arts.sf.fandom,
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I've been using C++ off and on for more than a quarter century, and
So, your C++ knowledge is 25 years out of date? When did you last
answer a question in comp.lang.c++?
You're just as out of date, you know? The question these days is:

When did you last answer a question on StackOverflow, and how many of
your answers have been voted best answer to the question.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
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