Discussion:
Guilty (Movie) Pleasures
(too old to reply)
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 01:51:17 UTC
Permalink
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula Andress,
Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden, Jean-Paul Belmondo,
and many others. I can't defend the quality of the movie in anyway. The
script's a mess, the ending is ridiculous, and Woody Allen said he was so
disengaged making it he's never seen the finished film. (I later read Peter
Sellers and Orson Welles got into a fight and that's why they have virtually
no time where they're in the same frame, even though they have two big
scenes together.)

And yet it's a film I love to go back to. It's got a bouncy Burt Bacharach
score (including Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass's rendition of the title
song and Dustry Springfield introducing "The Look of Love"), some eyepopping
visuals (including a UFO landing in London), and more than a few laughs.

What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Kip Williams
2003-12-30 01:57:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula Andress,
Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden, Jean-Paul Belmondo,
and many others. I can't defend the quality of the movie in anyway. The
It's oddly compelling, isn't it?
Post by Dan Kimmel
script's a mess, the ending is ridiculous, and Woody Allen said he was so
disengaged making it he's never seen the finished film. (I later read Peter
Sellers and Orson Welles got into a fight and that's why they have virtually
no time where they're in the same frame, even though they have two big
scenes together.)
And yet it's a film I love to go back to. It's got a bouncy Burt Bacharach
score (including Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass's rendition of the title
song and Dustry Springfield introducing "The Look of Love"), some eyepopping
visuals (including a UFO landing in London), and more than a few laughs.
I like to play that theme. It goes well on the piano and is playable
on my smallest electronic keyboard (an itty-bitty Radio Shack thing
with two and a half octaves) as well.
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Forbidden Zone, maybe. It's cheap and ugly, but I find it entertaining.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"The politics of failure has failed! And I say we must move forward,
not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling,
twirling toward freedom!" --Kodos
Kip Williams
2003-12-30 02:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula Andress,
Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden, Jean-Paul Belmondo,
What I forgot to mention is that, as I perhaps learned on this group
(brain...) is that the DVD of that includes the TV version of
"Casino Royale," which may possibly have more to do with the book of
the same name than the movie of the same name. Then again, it might
not. Some day I'll know.

I sometimes think they should make, like, a James Bond movie of that
book. My proposal has, I think, has novelty going for it.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"The politics of failure has failed! And I say we must move forward,
not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling,
twirling toward freedom!" --Kodos
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 02:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula Andress,
Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden, Jean-Paul Belmondo,
What I forgot to mention is that, as I perhaps learned on this group
(brain...) is that the DVD of that includes the TV version of
"Casino Royale," which may possibly have more to do with the book of
the same name than the movie of the same name. Then again, it might
not. Some day I'll know.
I sometimes think they should make, like, a James Bond movie of that
book. My proposal has, I think, has novelty going for it.
Fleming had sold off the rights to it years before which is why there was
some early TV version and why producer/agent Charles K. Feldman was able to
acquire it after the Bond films became hits. According to the host on TCM,
he originally wanted to do a "serious" spy thriller, but realized that most
of the elements of the story had already been used in the Bond movie series.
So he decided to go for a spoof instead.
mike weber
2003-12-30 03:19:02 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:05:18 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
Post by Dan Kimmel
Fleming had sold off the rights to it years before which is why there was
some early TV version and why producer/agent Charles K. Feldman was able to
acquire it after the Bond films became hits. According to the host on TCM,
he originally wanted to do a "serious" spy thriller, but realized that most
of the elements of the story had already been used in the Bond movie series.
So he decided to go for a spoof instead.
I believe that Feldman was the one who originally bought the rights
and was involved in the teevee production.

Meanwhile, lately, i've been hearing rumours that there may be a
"straight" version of "Casino Royale" in the offing.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-12-30 04:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula
Andress, Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden,
Jean-Paul Belmondo,
What I forgot to mention is that, as I perhaps learned on this group
(brain...) is that the DVD of that includes the TV version of "Casino
Royale," which may possibly have more to do with the book of the same
name than the movie of the same name. Then again, it might not. Some day
I'll know.
Is that TV version the one with an American Bond (Barry Nelson, if memory
servse) and a British Felix Leiter?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
e***@panix.com
2003-12-30 09:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Is that TV version the one with an American Bond (Barry Nelson,
if memory servse) and a British Felix Leiter?
Yeah, that's Barry Nelson as "Jimmy Bond" and Peter Lorre doing
fine work as an enemy agent. Oh, and that's "Clarence" Leiter in
this version. Why change it? Who knows. Certainly worth a look
and possibly the most compelling reason to own the DVD.
--
Ed Dravecky III
FenCon - North Texas Science Fiction & Filk Convention
September 24-26, 2004 - http://www.fencon.org/
Kip Williams
2003-12-30 11:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula
Andress, Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden,
Jean-Paul Belmondo,
What I forgot to mention is that, as I perhaps learned on this group
(brain...) is that the DVD of that includes the TV version of "Casino
Royale," which may possibly have more to do with the book of the same
name than the movie of the same name. Then again, it might not. Some day
I'll know.
Is that TV version the one with an American Bond (Barry Nelson, if memory
servse) and a British Felix Leiter?
I haven't seen it yet. They showed it once on TNT, and I missed it.
Hence my interest in the DVD.
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
mike weber
2003-12-30 03:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
I like to play that theme. It goes well on the piano and is playable
on my smallest electronic keyboard (an itty-bitty Radio Shack thing
with two and a half octaves) as well.
The stereo version of the original sound track album is worth A Lot Of
Money.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Kip Williams
2003-12-30 04:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Kip Williams
I like to play that theme. It goes well on the piano and is playable
on my smallest electronic keyboard (an itty-bitty Radio Shack thing
with two and a half octaves) as well.
The stereo version of the original sound track album is worth A Lot Of
Money.
If I see it around, I'll bear that in mind. I have the theme in a
book of Sergio Mendez arrangements for piano (I keep trying out
pieces and finding out that "I know that one!"). "The Look of Love"
is in my book of Bacharach-David tunes.

The scary thing is that the lyrics Sellers mumbles to that tune were
apparently part of the song. I saw one collection of show tunes that
printed the words with the melody. Maybe there's some other
explanation. I didn't buy the book that day, and I haven't seen it
again.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"The politics of failure has failed! And I say we must move forward,
not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling,
twirling toward freedom!" --Kodos
mike weber
2003-12-30 10:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
The scary thing is that the lyrics Sellers mumbles to that tune were
apparently part of the song
I watched the film relatively recently, and i don't recall Sellers
mumbling anything -- what does he say?
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Kip Williams
2003-12-30 11:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Kip Williams
The scary thing is that the lyrics Sellers mumbles to that tune were
apparently part of the song
I watched the film relatively recently, and i don't recall Sellers
mumbling anything -- what does he say?
All I remember at the moment (morning before I go to work) is
something about "...we're fighting for our lives....with guns... and
knives..." and I've probably gotten that bit wrong already.
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 14:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by mike weber
Post by Kip Williams
The scary thing is that the lyrics Sellers mumbles to that tune were
apparently part of the song
I watched the film relatively recently, and i don't recall Sellers
mumbling anything -- what does he say?
All I remember at the moment (morning before I go to work) is
something about "...we're fighting for our lives....with guns... and
knives..." and I've probably gotten that bit wrong already.
No, those are lyrics to "Casino Royale" which are heard when the title song
is played during the end credits. Sellers doesn't do them (at least it
doesn't SOUND like him).
Kip Williams
2003-12-30 22:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by Kip Williams
Post by mike weber
Post by Kip Williams
The scary thing is that the lyrics Sellers mumbles to that tune were
apparently part of the song
I watched the film relatively recently, and i don't recall Sellers
mumbling anything -- what does he say?
All I remember at the moment (morning before I go to work) is
something about "...we're fighting for our lives....with guns... and
knives..." and I've probably gotten that bit wrong already.
No, those are lyrics to "Casino Royale" which are heard when the title song
is played during the end credits. Sellers doesn't do them (at least it
doesn't SOUND like him).
I thought we were talking about "Casino Royale." But if that's not
Sellers, I stand corrected. To me it sounds like some of the comedy
'spoken' records he did in the 60s.
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
mike weber
2003-12-31 00:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Dan Kimmel
No, those are lyrics to "Casino Royale" which are heard when the title song
is played during the end credits. Sellers doesn't do them (at least it
doesn't SOUND like him).
I thought we were talking about "Casino Royale." But if that's not
Sellers, I stand corrected. To me it sounds like some of the comedy
'spoken' records he did in the 60s.
I just found an mp3 of it online and listened; it doesn't sound like
Sellers to me -- however, the site where i found it says that it was
sung by someone named Michael Redway, who apparently issued it as a
single at some point as well.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Kip Williams
2003-12-31 00:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Dan Kimmel
No, those are lyrics to "Casino Royale" which are heard when the title song
is played during the end credits. Sellers doesn't do them (at least it
doesn't SOUND like him).
I thought we were talking about "Casino Royale." But if that's not
Sellers, I stand corrected. To me it sounds like some of the comedy
'spoken' records he did in the 60s.
I just found an mp3 of it online and listened; it doesn't sound like
Sellers to me -- however, the site where i found it says that it was
sung by someone named Michael Redway, who apparently issued it as a
single at some point as well.
With that clue, I went and found this:

-----
http://www.jerryosborne.com/6-2-03.htm

FOR THE WEEK OF JUNE 2, 2003

DEAR JERRY: Last year, your annual unsolved whodunit was about the
unidentified singer of the theme song of the film “Casino Royale.”

Having not seen any mention of this in your column since then, I
assume no one came through for you.

Well, after a great deal of networking and hunch-playing, I not only
know who the singer is, but just received a personal e-mail from
him. His name is Michael Redway, and here is his letter:

“Yes, I am the singer of the vocal version of “Casino Royale.”

“The vocal track was recorded at the same time as the film track,
done live on the set. We recorded at CTS Studios Queensway,
conducted by the great man himself, Burt Bacharach. What a thrill it
was!

“I don't know why I didn't get credited [on either the album or the
film]. I suppose I could blame it on my management at the time.

“Thank you for your interest. I hope this information is useful.”

Mike also mentioned that he was once the lead singer of the Mike
Sammes Singers.

I will be anxious to see what the musical mystery for 2003 turns out
to be.
—Wyl E. Cyote, via e-mail.

DEAR WYL: Thanks to your investigative diligence — and also that of
Chester Prudhomme — one of our most difficult musical mysteries is
now solved.

Besides the stint with the Mike Sammes Singers, Redway made a number
of solo recordings, including the 1973 hit, “Good Morning” (Philips
40720).
-----

You see, I learned something today. Thanks to Dan for pointing it
out and Mike for the further clue.

I guess one thing, subconsciously, was that I couldn't imagine
leaving that in the picture if it hadn't been by someone like
Sellers. Wrong again, Subconscious-Boy!
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-12-30 04:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
And yet it's ["Casino Royale"] a film I love to go back to. It's got a
bouncy Burt Bacharach score (including Herb Alpert and the Tijuana
Brass's rendition of the title song and Dustry Springfield introducing
"The Look of Love"), some eyepopping visuals (including a UFO landing
in London), and more than a few laughs.
I like to play that theme. It goes well on the piano and is playable
on my smallest electronic keyboard (an itty-bitty Radio Shack thing
with two and a half octaves) as well.
I enjoy it too. As an exercise in nostalgia, I've been collecting the
various pop, novelty, and children's songs I liked as a child, and make
varied compilations for driving, rainy Sundays, and the like. There are
scads of vocals by Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Nat "King" Cole and the
like, precious little rock'n'roll (though a few), and some instrumentals
such as this one.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
Kevin J. Maroney
2003-12-30 20:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Forbidden Zone, maybe. It's cheap and ugly, but I find it entertaining.
Great film. In a similar but completely different vein, "Plan 10 from
Outer Space", the best sf film of 1994.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | ***@panix.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Daniel R. Reitman
2003-12-31 06:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
Great film. In a similar but completely different vein, "Plan 10 from
Outer Space", the best sf film of 1994.
A cute little film. For those who haven't seen it, Bela Lugosi does
not appear.

Dan, ad nauseam
mike weber
2003-12-31 10:32:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:10:27 -0800, Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
Great film. In a similar but completely different vein, "Plan 10 from
Outer Space", the best sf film of 1994.
A cute little film. For those who haven't seen it, Bela Lugosi does
not appear.
Which makes it different in what way from "Plan 9 from Outer Space"?
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Kevin J. Maroney
2003-12-31 18:02:19 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:32:51 GMT, mike weber
Post by mike weber
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:10:27 -0800, Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
Great film. In a similar but completely different vein, "Plan 10 from
Outer Space", the best sf film of 1994.
A cute little film. For those who haven't seen it, Bela Lugosi does
not appear.
Which makes it different in what way from "Plan 9 from Outer Space"?
Lugosi *is* actually in Plan 9 from Outer Space. Briefly.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | ***@panix.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-12-31 20:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:32:51 GMT, mike weber
Post by mike weber
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:10:27 -0800, Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
Great film. In a similar but completely different vein, "Plan 10 from
Outer Space", the best sf film of 1994.
A cute little film. For those who haven't seen it, Bela Lugosi does
not appear.
Which makes it different in what way from "Plan 9 from Outer Space"?
Lugosi *is* actually in Plan 9 from Outer Space. Briefly.
And the rest of the time it's a dentist holding a cape over his face.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as VelveetaT is to aged cheddar cheese
Pete McCutchen
2004-01-03 06:26:56 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:30:05 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
Post by mike weber
Which makes it different in what way from "Plan 9 from Outer Space"?
Lugosi *is* actually in Plan 9 from Outer Space. Briefly.
And the rest of the time it's a dentist holding a cape over his face.
I thought it was a chiropractor.
--
Pete McCutchen
mike weber
2004-01-01 03:26:43 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:02:19 -0500, Kevin J. Maroney <***@panix.com>
typed
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:32:51 GMT, mike weber
Post by mike weber
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:10:27 -0800, Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
Great film. In a similar but completely different vein, "Plan 10 from
Outer Space", the best sf film of 1994.
A cute little film. For those who haven't seen it, Bela Lugosi does
not appear.
Which makes it different in what way from "Plan 9 from Outer Space"?
Lugosi *is* actually in Plan 9 from Outer Space. Briefly.
Yah -- it was just too good a joke to pass up.

Well, it seemed that way at the time, anyway...
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
2003-12-30 02:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula Andress,
Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden, Jean-Paul Belmondo,
and many others. I can't defend the quality of the movie in anyway. The
script's a mess, the ending is ridiculous, and Woody Allen said he was so
disengaged making it he's never seen the finished film. (I later read Peter
Sellers and Orson Welles got into a fight and that's why they have virtually
no time where they're in the same frame, even though they have two big
scenes together.)
And yet it's a film I love to go back to. It's got a bouncy Burt Bacharach
score (including Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass's rendition of the title
song and Dustry Springfield introducing "The Look of Love"), some eyepopping
visuals (including a UFO landing in London), and more than a few laughs.
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
I'm with you on _Casino Royale_.

I'm fond of _Fiend Without A Face_, once the alien creatures become visible
as brain-and-spinal-columns moving around like inchworms.

-- Alan
--
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- ***@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park CA 94025
===============================================================================
mike weber
2003-12-30 03:16:26 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:51:17 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
Post by Dan Kimmel
(I later read Peter
Sellers and Orson Welles got into a fight and that's why they have virtually
no time where they're in the same frame, even though they have two big
scenes together.)
Actually, Sellers was fired in mid-production, accto the commentary
track on the DVD (which also includes the entire USAn teevee
production from 1953 with Peter Lorre as le Chifre), because he simply
announced that he was ill and disappeared for a couple weeks -- while
he was out, they shot around him, and, after he was fired, they shot
around *that*.

Even the shot of him in the end credits is an out-take from another
sequence.

Another place where they had to "synch up" two mis-matched sequences
comes when Sir James (Niven) tells Moneypenny to remind him if he
stammers any more, as he won't have time for it on the job.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Petrea Mitchell
2003-12-30 04:23:38 UTC
Permalink
At Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:51:17 GMT,
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula Andress,
Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden, Jean-Paul Belmondo,
and many others. I can't defend the quality of the movie in anyway.
I find the last third or so of it to be defensible. IMHO, once the
writer(s) have all the characters established and throw them all into the
blender together, it's a terrific movie. But the first two-thirds are
awfully boring.
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <***@m5p.com> <***@osm.com>
"Happy motoring. And take that brassiere off your head." ---Dave Barry
"After a certain point, death drives the issue home." ---RetroMUD help file
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-12-30 04:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petrea Mitchell
At Tue, 30 Dec 2003 01:51:17 GMT,
Post by Dan Kimmel
I just watched "Casino Royale" (1967) on TCM. It was a hilariously
overproduced James Bond spoof with a several directors (including John
Huston) and a cast that included David Niven, Peter Sellers, Ursula
Andress, Woody Allen, Orson Welles, Deborah Kerr, William Holden,
Jean-Paul Belmondo, and many others. I can't defend the quality of the
movie in anyway.
I find the last third or so of it to be defensible. IMHO, once the
writer(s) have all the characters established and throw them all into
the blender together, it's a terrific movie. But the first two-thirds
are awfully boring.
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time
best" list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
I loved that movie as a teen and I love it still.

As I recall, you were listening to (among other things) Goon Shows and
enjoying them when you were 8-9.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
Kip Williams
2003-12-30 11:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
I loved that movie as a teen and I love it still.
"Well! Two nasty, naughty children gone. Three good, kind children
left!" --WW
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
Irina Rempt
2003-12-30 06:52:06 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday 30 December 2003 05:23 Petrea Mitchell
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and
I find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
I've never seen the movie, but I've got it with the book. There seem to
be two camps in that, both absolute, radically dividing families (my
husband and two daughters aged 8 and almost 10 love it, the other
eight-year-old and I hate it). Yes, it makes me sick (not afraid, I
find it gruesome rather than scary).

Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina/
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
http://www.valdyas.org/~irina/foundobjects/ Latest: 18-Nov-2003
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-12-30 07:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irina Rempt
On Tuesday 30 December 2003 05:23 Petrea Mitchell
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and
I find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
I've never seen the movie, but I've got it with the book. There seem to
be two camps in that, both absolute, radically dividing families (my
husband and two daughters aged 8 and almost 10 love it, the other
eight-year-old and I hate it). Yes, it makes me sick (not afraid, I
find it gruesome rather than scary).
Well, I imagine that brief shot of a chicken getting its head chopped off
is probably disturbing to some, titillating-gross to others.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
David Goldfarb
2003-12-30 11:35:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch outright
horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't watch all of
_Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl blows up like a balloon
just got to me.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Tom?...I don't get you."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Nobody does. I'm the wind, baby."
***@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Mystery Science Theater 3000
Pete McCutchen
2004-01-03 00:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch outright
horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't watch all of
_Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl blows up like a balloon
just got to me.
That was what got my neighbor as well. (See my other post for more
details.)
--
Pete McCutchen
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-01-03 01:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete McCutchen
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch
outright horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't
watch all of _Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl blows
up like a balloon just got to me.
That was what got my neighbor as well. (See my other post for more
details.)
She must have blinked when the chicken got its head chopped off.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
David Goldfarb
2004-01-03 11:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete McCutchen
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch outright
horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't watch all of
_Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl blows up like a balloon
just got to me.
That was what got my neighbor as well. (See my other post for more
details.)
30 years after the fact, I actually take some comfort in knowing that
other people had trouble with that bit too. Someone getting impaled
by an iron weathercock or being decapitated by a sheet of plate glass?
No problem. Getting blown up by a balloon for eating a stolen piece
of chewing gum? Ayeei. The demonic forces of the Antichrist were
safely in the realm of fantasy, but chewing gum was something I did
frequently.
--
David Goldfarb |"Everyone generalizes from insufficient data.
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | I know I do."
***@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Steven Brust
Paul Dormer
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch outright
horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't watch all of
_Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl blows up like a balloon
just got to me.
There was a "where are they now" programme about this film on over
Christmas. Apparently, the blue make-up used in that scene had a certain
persistency. Even when she was back at school in the US, the girl found
she was turning blue again.

The girl who played Veruca Salt had a career as an actress. She had a
controversial nude scene in the TV series Poldark.
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-01-03 19:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch
outright horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't watch
all of _Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl blows up like
a balloon just got to me.
There was a "where are they now" programme about this film on over
Christmas. Apparently, the blue make-up used in that scene had a certain
persistency. Even when she was back at school in the US, the girl found
she was turning blue again.
The girl who played Veruca Salt had a career as an actress. She had a
controversial nude scene in the TV series Poldark.
Aiee! And to think that I gave up on "Masterpiece Theatre" after the final
episode of "Upstairs, Downstairs"!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
Paul Dormer
1970-01-01 00:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite
movie
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head,
and I
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch
outright horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't
watch
Post by David Goldfarb
all of _Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl blows up
like
Post by David Goldfarb
a balloon just got to me.
There was a "where are they now" programme about this film on over
Christmas. Apparently, the blue make-up used in that scene had a
certain persistency. Even when she was back at school in the US, the
girl found she was turning blue again.
The girl who played Veruca Salt had a career as an actress. She had
a controversial nude scene in the TV series Poldark.
Aiee! And to think that I gave up on "Masterpiece Theatre" after the
final episode of "Upstairs, Downstairs"!
Controversial only for its day, I suspect. The programme last week was
able to show the scene at six p.m. on Boxing Day uncut.
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-01-04 18:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite
movie when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my
head, and I find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find
that it induces fear or nausea in many people.
When I was young (a bit younger than 8-9, say 6-7) I could watch
outright horror films like _The Omen_ with no problem. I couldn't
watch all of _Willy Wonka_ -- the sequence where the nasty girl
blows up like a balloon just got to me.
There was a "where are they now" programme about this film on over
Christmas. Apparently, the blue make-up used in that scene had a
certain persistency. Even when she was back at school in the US, the
girl found she was turning blue again.
The girl who played Veruca Salt had a career as an actress. She had
a controversial nude scene in the TV series Poldark.
Aiee! And to think that I gave up on "Masterpiece Theatre" after the
final episode of "Upstairs, Downstairs"!
Controversial only for its day, I suspect. The programme last week was
able to show the scene at six p.m. on Boxing Day uncut.
Speaking of controversial nudity from the 1970s, I understand that the PBS
version of Bruce Jay Friedman's "Steambath" has now been issued on DVD,
complete with Valerie Perrine's nude scenes (topless and full rear).

But that's nothing -- one of the broadcast TV stations in San Francisco ran
Nicolas Roeg's "Walkabout" in the mid-1970s, apparently uncut, including
female and male frontal nudity in the Outback.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
Daniel R. Reitman
2004-01-04 20:01:26 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:37:35 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
. . . .
But that's nothing -- one of the broadcast TV stations in San Francisco ran
Nicolas Roeg's "Walkabout" in the mid-1970s, apparently uncut, including
female and male frontal nudity in the Outback.
There was a station out of Boston that would broadcast assorted uncut
films in the early 80's. I recall seeing Logan's Run with the
cryochamber scene.

The New York PBS station, about the same time, occasionally showed the
original Swept Away.

Dan, ad nauseam
Kip Williams
2004-01-04 20:36:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:37:35 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
But that's nothing -- one of the broadcast TV stations in San Francisco ran
Nicolas Roeg's "Walkabout" in the mid-1970s, apparently uncut, including
female and male frontal nudity in the Outback.
There was a station out of Boston that would broadcast assorted uncut
films in the early 80's. I recall seeing Logan's Run with the
cryochamber scene.
The New York PBS station, about the same time, occasionally showed the
original Swept Away.
I first saw frontal nudity of both sexes on TV around 1970, in a "60
Minutes" report on a Russian spa.

Benny Hill, on WOR, would occasionally show nudity around 1981.

A&E included the nude scene in "Slaughterhouse Five" in the 80s. A
Houston station included some nudity in "Lady Frankenstein" around
1983. TBS left in a couple of seconds of nudity in a Marlowe movie;
I think it was "The Long Goodbye."
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
Kip Williams
2004-01-04 20:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
I first saw frontal nudity of both sexes on TV around 1970, in a "60
Minutes" report on a Russian spa.
And a few months back, the "E!" (E factorial) cable network had a
show on wild and swinging places around the world, and for the first
20 minutes, neglected to censor the bimbo footage. For a little
while, it was as if they had true enertainment potential. Then
somebody remembered.
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
James Nicoll
2004-01-04 20:43:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:37:35 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
But that's nothing -- one of the broadcast TV stations in San Francisco ran
Nicolas Roeg's "Walkabout" in the mid-1970s, apparently uncut, including
female and male frontal nudity in the Outback.
There was a station out of Boston that would broadcast assorted uncut
films in the early 80's. I recall seeing Logan's Run with the
cryochamber scene.
The New York PBS station, about the same time, occasionally showed the
original Swept Away.
I first saw frontal nudity of both sexes on TV around 1970, in a "60
Minutes" report on a Russian spa.
CBLFT, a Francophone CBC affliate, had lots of late night nudity
in the 1970s. I think it was part of the whole Bilingualism program along
with most French teachers being amazingly good looking.
--
"The Union Nationale has brought [Quebec] to the edge of an abyss.
With Social Credit you will take one step forward."

Camil Samson
mike weber
2004-01-05 02:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
TBS left in a couple of seconds of nudity in a Marlowe movie;
I think it was "The Long Goodbye."
I would say that was likely; the only other recent Marlowe film it
might be that i can recall would be James Garner's "Marlowe", in which
a supposedly nude dancer wears a body stocking.[1]

Or were there any Marlowe films since "Goodbye"?[2]

[1] And in which Bruce Lee does an absolutely over-the-top scene
wrecking Marlowe's office as a threat... and comes to a Bad End when
Marlowepsyches him out.

[2] Which introduced Morris the cat and his "finicky" routine, which
inspired the commercial series...
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Kip Williams
2004-01-05 04:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Kip Williams
TBS left in a couple of seconds of nudity in a Marlowe movie;
I think it was "The Long Goodbye."
I would say that was likely; the only other recent Marlowe film it
might be that i can recall would be James Garner's "Marlowe", in which
a supposedly nude dancer wears a body stocking.[1]
Okay, I can be more specific. Robert Mitchum played Marlowe, and the
nude scene included The Italian Stallion, Sylvester Stallone in the
office of the hulking madame who replaces Amthor in this version.
There's an excellent reading of an exchange that goes something
like: "You're a stupid man, Mr. Marlowe. You're on a stupid case for
a stupid client." "I get it; I'm stupid." That makes it "Farewell,
My Lovely," now that I think about it.
Post by mike weber
Or were there any Marlowe films since "Goodbye"?[2]
[1] And in which Bruce Lee does an absolutely over-the-top scene
wrecking Marlowe's office as a threat... and comes to a Bad End when
Marlowepsyches him out.
I like that scene, and the movie in general.
Post by mike weber
[2] Which introduced Morris the cat and his "finicky" routine, which
inspired the commercial series...
If this is the Gould version, I don't like it. Nope. Don't.
--
--Kip (Williams) ... now with more Sarah at members.cox.net/kipw
"Thank you drive through." --Beavis & Butt-head
Dan Kimmel
2004-01-05 10:55:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Or were there any Marlowe films since "Goodbye"?
"Farewell My Lovely" and the weak remake of "The Big Sleep."

I seem to recall an HBO series in the '80s with Powers Boothe as well.
Petrea Mitchell
2004-01-05 03:15:46 UTC
Permalink
At Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:01:26 -0800,
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
There was a station out of Boston that would broadcast assorted uncut
films in the early 80's. I recall seeing Logan's Run with the
cryochamber scene.
The New York PBS station, about the same time, occasionally showed the
original Swept Away.
PBS has always had tons of nudity, what with "Nova", "Nature", National
Geographic specials, and so forth forever displaying nude primitive
tribespeople...
--
/
Petrea Mitchell <|> <|> <***@m5p.com> <***@osm.com>
"Remember, when the dancing dwarf turns blue, you're a mommy."
---Mikey "Dreamy" Sphar
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-01-05 03:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petrea Mitchell
At Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:01:26 -0800,
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
There was a station out of Boston that would broadcast assorted uncut
films in the early 80's. I recall seeing Logan's Run with the
cryochamber scene.
The New York PBS station, about the same time, occasionally showed the
original Swept Away.
PBS has always had tons of nudity, what with "Nova", "Nature", National
Geographic specials, and so forth forever displaying nude primitive
tribespeople...
Traditionally, they "don't count." Outdated attitude, sure. But it
delimned the difference between, say, National Geographic and American
Sunbather (to give at least a theoretically socially redeeming example).
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
Kate Gladstone
2004-01-05 17:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petrea Mitchell
PBS has always had tons of nudity, what with "Nova", "Nature", National
Geographic specials, and so forth forever displaying nude primitive
tribespeople...
National Geographic, by the way, has a strict policy (over a century
old, and still in force) of depicting only those female mammary glands
that belong to non-"white" females. Even if somebody discovers a tribe
of pale-skinned people who habitually go unclad above the waist, NatGeog
employees (current and former) tell me that the females in question will
have to "cover up" or turn their backs to the camera for all their
"true-to-life" photo-shots.

(Supporting evidence: if you follow the NatGeog "Worlds Apart" cable-TV
show - in each episode, a different urban-USA family spends a week or
two living in a different low-tech tribal culture - you may have noticed
a fairly recent episode in which a USA family with a teen-aged daughter
went to the Trobriand Islands. Near the end of the episode, in a
celebratory dance of women and girls, the teen-aged daughter
participated but added a red bandeau to tribal garb which otherwise
would have left her bare above the waist like every other woman in the
shot.)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair - ***@global2000.net
http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Kristopher
2004-01-05 18:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate Gladstone
Post by Petrea Mitchell
PBS has always had tons of nudity, what with "Nova",
"Nature", National Geographic specials, and so forth
forever displaying nude primitive tribespeople...
National Geographic, by the way, has a strict policy (over
a century old, and still in force) of depicting only those
female mammary glands that belong to non-"white" females.
Even if somebody discovers a tribe of pale-skinned people
who habitually go unclad above the waist, NatGeog employees
(current and former) tell me that the females in question
will have to "cover up" or turn their backs to the camera
for all their "true-to-life" photo-shots.
(Supporting evidence: if you follow the NatGeog "Worlds
Apart" cable-TV show - in each episode, a different
urban-USA family spends a week or two living in a different
low-tech tribal culture - you may have noticed a fairly
recent episode in which a USA family with a teen-aged
daughter went to the Trobriand Islands. Near the end of the
episode, in a celebratory dance of women and girls, the
teen-aged daughter participated but added a red bandeau to
tribal garb which otherwise would have left her bare above
the waist like every other woman in the shot.)
Which was just as likely to be her own decision as anyone else's.
--
Kristopher

The question is not "What," or "How," but rather "-Why-?"
Daniel R. Reitman
2004-01-05 07:00:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 03:15:46 -0000, Petrea Mitchell
Post by Petrea Mitchell
At Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:01:26 -0800,
. . . .
The New York PBS station, about the same time, occasionally showed the
original Swept Away.
PBS has always had tons of nudity, what with "Nova", "Nature", National
Geographic specials, and so forth forever displaying nude primitive
tribespeople...
I suppose actors portraying Italian tourists and sailors would be more
or less the same thing. :-)

Dan, ad nauseam
mike weber
2004-01-05 02:49:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:37:35 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Speaking of controversial nudity from the 1970s, I understand that the PBS
version of Bruce Jay Friedman's "Steambath" has now been issued on DVD,
complete with Valerie Perrine's nude scenes (topless and full rear).
I read an interview with Perrine years ago -- not long after
"Slaughterhouse 5" -- in which she basically said that she didn't
mind showing her breasts or buttocks, but would never, never show her
"privates".
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-01-05 03:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
typed
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Speaking of controversial nudity from the 1970s, I understand that the
PBS version of Bruce Jay Friedman's "Steambath" has now been issued on
DVD, complete with Valerie Perrine's nude scenes (topless and full
rear).
I read an interview with Perrine years ago -- not long after
"Slaughterhouse 5" -- in which she basically said that she didn't mind
showing her breasts or buttocks, but would never, never show her
"privates".
Well, that was long before full frontal nudity was made practically
commonplace by Helen Shaver, Sharon Stone, Julianne Moore, et al.

Miss Perrine is quite a bogglingly good-looking woman with her clothes on,
anyway, especially in person. (She was formerly a client of the CPA firm I
used to work for, and I saw her in the office a couple of times. Gasp.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
Michael Kube-McDowell
2004-01-05 18:50:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:37:35 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Speaking of controversial nudity from the 1970s, I understand that the PBS
version of Bruce Jay Friedman's "Steambath" has now been issued on DVD,
complete with Valerie Perrine's nude scenes (topless and full rear).
But that's nothing -- one of the broadcast TV stations in San Francisco ran
Nicolas Roeg's "Walkabout" in the mid-1970s, apparently uncut, including
female and male frontal nudity in the Outback.
The earliest significant prime time network nudity I can recall was in
the miniseries ROOTS in 1977. Of course, National Geographic rules
applied.

I do not remember any controversy over it; in fact, I think the nudity
survived uncut when the (Christian) Family Channel reran the series on
the 20th anniversary.
--
Michael Kube-McDowell, author and packrat
http://k-mac.home.att.net/
VECTORS preview at http://www.sff.net/people/K-Mac/Vectors.htm
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-01-05 19:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 18:37:35 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Speaking of controversial nudity from the 1970s, I understand that the PBS
version of Bruce Jay Friedman's "Steambath" has now been issued on DVD,
complete with Valerie Perrine's nude scenes (topless and full rear).
But that's nothing -- one of the broadcast TV stations in San Francisco ran
Nicolas Roeg's "Walkabout" in the mid-1970s, apparently uncut, including
female and male frontal nudity in the Outback.
The earliest significant prime time network nudity I can recall was in
the miniseries ROOTS in 1977. Of course, National Geographic rules
applied.
There's a fair amount of nudity in the BBC's _Walking with
Cavemen_, though the camera angles and editing were tweaked as
much as possible not to show very many up-close weenies. (Innumerable
pairs of up-close boobs.)

I suppose somebody could have decided, in an extention of the Nat.
Geog. rules, "If they aren't human, it doesn't matter if they're
naked," though by the time they got to _H. ergaster_ they looked
pretty darned human.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com

Pete McCutchen
2004-01-03 00:51:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:23:38 -0000, Petrea Mitchell
Post by Petrea Mitchell
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
That was one of the first films that I saw in the theater. I saw it
with my next door neighbor, a girl who was maybe two years older than
me, and her mom. She became terrified at one point and had to leave
the theater. I considered this to be a great victory at the time,
though it was somewhat undermined when she beat me up for making fun
of her.
--
Pete McCutchen
Marilee J. Layman
2004-01-03 04:02:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:23:38 -0000, Petrea Mitchell
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
I think this is why I don't "get" horror. I thought that was a
perfectly nice movie (and I don't know why they're remaking it).
Whenever someone has me read a book or see a movie because they're
sure it will scare me, it never does.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Ian McDowell
2004-01-03 15:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete McCutchen
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:23:38 -0000, Petrea Mitchell
Post by Petrea Mitchell
_Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory_ was my absolute favorite movie
when I was 8-9 and the darker stuff went completely over my head, and I
find that I can still appreciate it, but I also find that it induces
fear or nausea in many people.
I think this is why I don't "get" horror. I thought that was a
perfectly nice movie (and I don't know why they're remaking it).
One reason why "they" (in this case, Terry Gilliam and Johnny Depp)
might be remaking it is to do a more faithful adaptation of the Road
Dahl novel. Or because, as with Peter Jackson and KING KONG, they
want to retell a story that they loved when they were young. Or
because they think it will be a hit. Or all three.
Post by Pete McCutchen
Whenever someone has me read a book or see a movie because they're
sure it will scare me, it never does.
While classic children's literature can certainly be dark, I don't
think that Dahl ever meant CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY to be
"scary" in the Lucy Clifford or CORALINE sense. More than one critic
has said that Dahl's success as a children's author is partially due
to his "amorality" and "sadism." While some kids were no doubt scared
by reading the description of what happened to Veruka Salt and the
other nasty children, many others enjoyed seeing unpleasant kids (who,
no doubt, reminded them of their less likeable schoolmates) getting a
imaginatively grotesque comeuppance.
mike weber
2004-01-03 18:25:50 UTC
Permalink
On 3 Jan 2004 07:20:55 -0800, ***@hotmail.com (Ian McDowell)
typed
Post by Ian McDowell
While classic children's literature can certainly be dark, I don't
think that Dahl ever meant CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY to be
"scary" in the Lucy Clifford or CORALINE sense. More than one critic
has said that Dahl's success as a children's author is partially due
to his "amorality" and "sadism." While some kids were no doubt scared
by reading the description of what happened to Veruka Salt and the
other nasty children, many others enjoyed seeing unpleasant kids (who,
no doubt, reminded them of their less likeable schoolmates) getting a
imaginatively grotesque comeuppance.
There is an underlying nastiness to all of the filmed versions of
Dahl's work that i have seen.

While i can peridocally rewatch and enjoy "The Witches", it is no
exception.

"Willie Wonka" and "James and the Giant Peach" i can't even rewatch.

Perhaps this is not Dahl's fault, but the few times i have tried to
read one of his children's books i have bounced off the prose.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
James Nicoll
2003-12-30 04:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Hudson Hawk_ but I FF past the prologue, which does nothing
not done again later.

_Ishtar_. I know people exactly like those two lead characters.
--
"The Union Nationale has brought [Quebec] to the edge of an abyss.
With Social Credit you will take one step forward."

Camil Samson
Marcus L. Rowland
2003-12-30 09:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Hudson Hawk_ but I FF past the prologue, which does nothing
not done again later.
Agree entirely. Like the film, but the wheezy-voiced voiceover there and
at the end sucks.

Some others I like that probably won't make anyone's best list:

Another Willis, _The Whole Nine Yards_, a nice black comedy movie about
multiple murder. The director's track on the DVD is all about how they
had to make every penny count to film it on a tiny budget, but despite
that it's a very good film. In the same vein, I like _Grosse Point
Blank_ and _The Long Kiss Goodnight_, which are both ridiculously
over-the top comedy thrillers about assassins. Don't know what this says
about me.

_Innocent Blood_, a comedy horror vampire movie with Mafia vampires.
Very silly. Unfortunately only seems to be on R1 and cropped DVD, can't
get a widescreen version AFAIK.

_Starship Troopers_. Yes, I know, but I like quite a lot of it.

_Flesh Gordon_. Porn, but porn with style. I feel no great desire to buy
the DVD so it obviously isn't high on my list, but it is fun.
--
Marcus L. Rowland http://www.forgottenfutures.com/
LJ:ffutures http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/
Forgotten Futures - The Scientific Romance Role Playing Game
"Life is chaos; Chaos is life; Control is an illusion." - Andromeda
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 14:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Hudson Hawk_ but I FF past the prologue, which does nothing
not done again later.
It's terribly self-indulgent and Willis smirks a lot, but I remember being
amused at the time.
Post by James Nicoll
_Ishtar_. I know people exactly like those two lead characters.
Wow, now that takes real devotion to sit through that film. On the other
hand, I've watched the *uncut* "Heaven's Gate" so I guess it takes all
kinds. :)
Matthew B. Tepper
2003-12-30 15:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
In article
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time
best" list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Hudson Hawk_ but I FF past the prologue, which does nothing
not done again later.
It's terribly self-indulgent and Willis smirks a lot, but I remember
being amused at the time.
_Ishtar_. I know people exactly like those two lead characters.
Wow, now that takes real devotion to sit through that film. On the other
hand, I've watched the *uncut* "Heaven's Gate" so I guess it takes all
kinds. :)
I haven't seen that, but I've seen something that might possibly be worse,
the uncut "Wagner" film:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085107/

IMDB fails to list the version I saw, which ran nearly 13 hours.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Russell Watson is to opera as Velveeta™ is to aged cheddar cheese
Mark Jones
2003-12-30 17:30:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all
time best" list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star,
Chris Sarandon as the deliciously sadistic vampire (the way he taunts
the teenage hero--who knows the truth--in front of his clueless mother
and friends is priceless).

"Near Dark" - Aside the deus ex machina ending, I love this film.
More sadistic vampires; the massacre in "shitkicker heaven" was the
first scene in the movie I ever saw--I stumbled across it while
channel surfing once and was mesmerized.

"The Shadow" - Not a success at the box office, apparently, but I
loved it. Just the right amount of mystic wierdness, plus John Lone
as the villain. What's not to like?
--

[AGB] Bullet Sponge
"So what happened then, grandpa?"
"Well, I got KILLED, of course!"
Dorothy J Heydt
2003-12-30 17:56:06 UTC
Permalink
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star...
OTOH there's _Targets,_ a dumb dumb movie about a highway sniper,
but which contains Boris Karloff's last performance, as an
elderly horror movie actor. There's a scene when the publicity
people ask the actor, preparing for the premiere of his latest
picture*, if he'll make a speech. "No," he says, "I'll tell them
a story, probably 'Appointment in Samara.'" And proceeds to tell
the story, in one take.

spoilers for the ending ensue....

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
*The premiere is in a drive-in, so of course the highway sniper
shows up and starts sniping at the parked cars while the film
rolls. The old actor goes out to confront him, and the sniper,
seeing the timeless monster of evil up on the screen over there
and the elderly dean of horror actors approaching him over here,
panics and collapses. The actor's final line: "I don't
understand. Was he afraid of *me*?"

That film needs a "good parts" edition with all Karloff's scenes
in and everything else cut out.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 19:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star...
OTOH there's _Targets,_ a dumb dumb movie about a highway sniper,
but which contains Boris Karloff's last performance, as an
elderly horror movie actor.
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
That film needs a "good parts" edition with all Karloff's scenes
in and everything else cut out.
"Targets," which was Peter Bogdonavich's first movie, actually has a very
good reputation.
Dorothy J Heydt
2003-12-30 20:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star...
OTOH there's _Targets,_ a dumb dumb movie about a highway sniper,
but which contains Boris Karloff's last performance, as an
elderly horror movie actor.
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
That film needs a "good parts" edition with all Karloff's scenes
in and everything else cut out.
"Targets," which was Peter Bogdonavich's first movie, actually has a very
good reputation.
If you say so. My personal take was that it stank except for
Karloff.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 20:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star...
OTOH there's _Targets,_ a dumb dumb movie about a highway sniper,
but which contains Boris Karloff's last performance, as an
elderly horror movie actor.
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
That film needs a "good parts" edition with all Karloff's scenes
in and everything else cut out.
"Targets," which was Peter Bogdonavich's first movie, actually has a very
good reputation.
If you say so. My personal take was that it stank except for
Karloff.
Well, it's not just me. Here's a link to a blurb from Leonard Maltin:

http://leonardmaltin.com/nucleus1.55/index.php?query=TARGETS&amount=0&blogid
=1

Frankly, my feeling is you're entitled to your opinion having seen the film.
But I know that if *I* used such language about a certain movie currently at
the top of the box office, I would be yelled at for being "rude" and
"insulting" and trying to "impose" my views on other people and claiming
those who disagreed were "stupid."

Now I don't think *you're* doing ANY of those things. I'm just noting the
double standards of some others. :)
Dorothy J Heydt
2003-12-30 21:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
Frankly, my feeling is you're entitled to your opinion having seen the film.
But I know that if *I* used such language about a certain movie currently at
the top of the box office, I would be yelled at for being "rude" and
"insulting" and trying to "impose" my views on other people and claiming
those who disagreed were "stupid."
If you're talking about the movie I think you're talking about, I
don't even discuss my opinions of that one.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Mark Jones
2003-12-30 22:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star...
OTOH there's _Targets,_ a dumb dumb movie about a highway sniper,
but which contains Boris Karloff's last performance, as an
elderly horror movie actor.
In "Fright Night" McDowell plays Peter Vincent, a washed-up horror
movie actor famous for being "the great vampire hunter!" Only now
he's doing the live-action segments for a local late-night horror
movie show (often showing his own movies).

Our hero, desperate for help, turns to him. He, of course, doesn't
believe in vampires but he needs the money Charlie offers him....
--

[AGB] Bullet Sponge
"So what happened then, grandpa?"
"Well, I got KILLED, of course!"
mike weber
2003-12-31 00:20:17 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:56:06 GMT, ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) typed
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star...
OTOH there's _Targets,_ a dumb dumb movie
And i have to say that i disagree with you pretty stringently with you
on that; it may be the best film Peter Bogdanovich ever made.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
about a highway sniper,
but which contains Boris Karloff's last performance, as an
elderly horror movie actor.
Unfortunately, *not* his final performance -- there are three simply
*horrible* US/Mexican films that came after. But i prefer to remember
"Targets" as his last, just as "The Shootist" was so perfect a
valedictory film for the Duke.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There's a scene when the publicity
people ask the actor, preparing for the premiere of his latest
picture*, if he'll make a speech. "No," he says, "I'll tell them
a story, probably 'Appointment in Samara.'" And proceeds to tell
the story, in one take.
The point of his choosing that story is that he and the sniper have
already crossed paths at least once or twice -- the sniper is
introduced testing a telescopic sight in a gunshop by sighting on
Karloff's head -- and will again, before the end.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
spoilers for the ending ensue....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
*The premiere is in a drive-in, so of course the highway sniper
shows up and starts sniping at the parked cars while the film
rolls. The old actor goes out to confront him, and the sniper,
seeing the timeless monster of evil up on the screen over there
and the elderly dean of horror actors approaching him over here,
panics and collapses. The actor's final line: "I don't
understand. Was he afraid of *me*?"
Actually, the sniper collapses after Orlok (Karloff) slaps him... and
i'm pretty sure that Orlok's line is along the lines of "Good God --
is *that* what I was afraid of?"
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
That film needs a "good parts" edition with all Karloff's scenes
in and everything else cut out.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 18:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Jones
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all
time best" list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
"Fright Night" - Roddy McDowell as a has-been monster movie star,
Chris Sarandon as the deliciously sadistic vampire (the way he taunts
the teenage hero--who knows the truth--in front of his clueless mother
and friends is priceless).
"Near Dark" - Aside the deus ex machina ending, I love this film.
More sadistic vampires; the massacre in "shitkicker heaven" was the
first scene in the movie I ever saw--I stumbled across it while
channel surfing once and was mesmerized.
These were both well-received films. No need to feel guilty at all. "Near
Dark" is one of those cult films that people who know it love to introduce
to others. "Fright Night" was a hit and even spawned a sequel. I remember
doing a summer preview that year and dreading it based on the description I
had for it, but when I finally saw the film it turned out to be a tremendous
amount of fun. It's the film I usually use as an example of not prejudging
a film prior to release.
Post by Mark Jones
"The Shadow" - Not a success at the box office, apparently, but I
loved it. Just the right amount of mystic wierdness, plus John Lone
as the villain. What's not to like?
This is more in the ballpark as "guilty pleasure." Lots of style and a
great cast, but it didn't seem to have much of a point other than "Batman"
and "Dick Tracy" had been hits a few years before.
mike weber
2003-12-31 00:15:28 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 09:30:14 -0800, Mark Jones <***@pacifier.com>
typed
Post by Mark Jones
"The Shadow" - Not a success at the box office, apparently, but I
loved it. Just the right amount of mystic wierdness, plus John Lone
as the villain. What's not to like?
Watching Tim Curry's "mad scene" with the tommy gun, a couple of
friends and i agreed that he would have made an excellent Joker, if
they hadn't cast Nicholson.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
James Nicoll
2003-12-30 15:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time
best"
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Kimmel
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
_Hudson Hawk_ but I FF past the prologue, which does nothing
not done again later.
It's terribly self-indulgent and Willis smirks a lot, but I remember being
amused at the time.
I liked the evil twins of Nick and Nora Charles, which I took to be
deliberate. They even had an Asta analog but lost the black maid, whose role
as written in the Thin Man movies did not age well (and which were filmed
in that charming 'look, we can cut her parts entirely for the Nergo-phobic
parts of the country' manner of the day).
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by James Nicoll
_Ishtar_. I know people exactly like those two lead characters.
Wow, now that takes real devotion to sit through that film. On the other
hand, I've watched the *uncut* "Heaven's Gate" so I guess it takes all
kinds. :)
I assume you've read _The Final Cut_?

I don't claim _Istar_ is a great masterpiece but I never under-
stood the energy with which it was attacked when it came out. It almost
seemed that the money spent on it led people to have unrealistically high
expectations for what was basically the Dumb and Dumber version of a _Road
To_ film.

Hmmm. Not unlike _Heaven's Gate_, actually. The money thing
distracting from the real issue of whether or not the movie blew chunks,
I mean.
--
"The Union Nationale has brought [Quebec] to the edge of an abyss.
With Social Credit you will take one step forward."

Camil Samson
David G. Bell
2003-12-30 16:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
I don't claim _Istar_ is a great masterpiece but I never under-
stood the energy with which it was attacked when it came out. It almost
seemed that the money spent on it led people to have unrealistically high
expectations for what was basically the Dumb and Dumber version of a _Road
To_ film.
Hmmm. Not unlike _Heaven's Gate_, actually. The money thing
distracting from the real issue of whether or not the movie blew chunks,
I mean.
I think the cinemaphotography on some of the movies of that time sucked.
They were thinking pre-electric=dark (some truth) but shooting scenes
too dark for the film-stock. Too much contrast in the lighting of the
set, and a bit too much low-key. I recall _Heaven's Gate_ as being one
of several movies that suffered from that.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 18:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by James Nicoll
_Ishtar_. I know people exactly like those two lead characters.
Wow, now that takes real devotion to sit through that film. On the other
hand, I've watched the *uncut* "Heaven's Gate" so I guess it takes all
kinds. :)
I assume you've read _The Final Cut_?
But of course. If you like that kind of behind the scenes Hollywood story,
get a hold of "Fatal Subtraction," about the lawsuit over "Coming to
America." It's a great chronicle about how the biggest fiction writers in
Hollywood are the folks doing the scripts, but the ones keeping the books.
Post by James Nicoll
I don't claim _Istar_ is a great masterpiece but I never under-
stood the energy with which it was attacked when it came out. It almost
seemed that the money spent on it led people to have unrealistically high
expectations for what was basically the Dumb and Dumber version of a _Road
To_ film.
Hmmm. Not unlike _Heaven's Gate_, actually. The money thing
distracting from the real issue of whether or not the movie blew chunks,
I mean.
That happens sometime. An evil buzz surrounds a film all out of proportion
to its actual flaws. Take "Gigli." As one of my colleagues points out, it
was FAR from the worst movie of the year (personally I nominate "Cat in the
Hat") yet that was the one everyone will remember as a "really bad film"
whether they saw it or not. (Now "Gigli" is not a particularly GOOD film,
but the negative press was all out of proportion to the film's problems.)
James Nicoll
2003-12-30 19:07:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by James Nicoll
_Ishtar_. I know people exactly like those two lead characters.
Wow, now that takes real devotion to sit through that film. On the other
hand, I've watched the *uncut* "Heaven's Gate" so I guess it takes all
kinds. :)
I assume you've read _The Final Cut_?
But of course. If you like that kind of behind the scenes Hollywood story,
get a hold of "Fatal Subtraction," about the lawsuit over "Coming to
America." It's a great chronicle about how the biggest fiction writers in
Hollywood are the folks doing the scripts, but the ones keeping the books.
Got it. Buchwald's an odd case for me. I remember him being
funny in the 1970s and yet can find no supporting evidence this was
true.

Anything else you would recommend?
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by James Nicoll
I don't claim _Istar_ is a great masterpiece but I never under-
stood the energy with which it was attacked when it came out. It almost
seemed that the money spent on it led people to have unrealistically high
expectations for what was basically the Dumb and Dumber version of a _Road
To_ film.
Hmmm. Not unlike _Heaven's Gate_, actually. The money thing
distracting from the real issue of whether or not the movie blew chunks,
I mean.
That happens sometime. An evil buzz surrounds a film all out of proportion
to its actual flaws. Take "Gigli." As one of my colleagues points out, it
was FAR from the worst movie of the year (personally I nominate "Cat in the
Hat") yet that was the one everyone will remember as a "really bad film"
whether they saw it or not. (Now "Gigli" is not a particularly GOOD film,
but the negative press was all out of proportion to the film's problems.)
Expectations minus results? Any modern Dr Seuss movie is of
course by its nature going to be a steaming pile of crap and whether it is
two feet tall or merely eighteen inches may not matter to people.
--
"The Union Nationale has brought [Quebec] to the edge of an abyss.
With Social Credit you will take one step forward."

Camil Samson
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-30 20:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by James Nicoll
I assume you've read _The Final Cut_?
But of course. If you like that kind of behind the scenes Hollywood story,
get a hold of "Fatal Subtraction," about the lawsuit over "Coming to
America." It's a great chronicle about how the biggest fiction writers in
Hollywood are the folks doing the scripts, but the ones keeping the books.
Got it. Buchwald's an odd case for me. I remember him being
funny in the 1970s and yet can find no supporting evidence this was
true.
He was funnier in the '60s. I have a bunch of paperback collections
somewhere. (Probably back at my mother's.)
Post by James Nicoll
Anything else you would recommend?
"Storming the Magic Kingdom," which was about the early '80s battle for
control of Disney and "Hit and Run," about Jon Peters and Peter Guber's
adventures at Sony (Columbia/TriStar). "Spike, Mike, Slackers & Dykes" is a
good look at the indie scene from the mid-'80s to the mid-'90s. And one of
the classics of the genre is "Indecent Exposure," about the Begelman affair.
Harry Payne
2003-12-30 12:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Melody (aka SWALK): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067418/ - written by
Alan Parker, produced by David Puttnam, music by the Bee Gees, and with
Mark Lester and Jack Wild reprising their buddy act from Oliver!
--
Harry
"We are less interested in actions than in attitudes."
- The Nightwatch, Babylon 5.
Sue Mason
2003-12-30 16:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Streets of Fire.
Unashamed, pure, feel good fantasy musical.

And the album is wonderful too, not just for the two Stienman tracks (which have never been
released, or recyled anywhere else).
Kris Hasson-Jones
2003-12-30 18:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue Mason
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Streets of Fire.
Unashamed, pure, feel good fantasy musical.
Amen. I love that flick, and I showed it to my kids about a year ago
and they love it too.
--
Kris Hasson-Jones ***@pacifier.com
But I *am* present as the truth of myself!
Cally Soukup
2003-12-30 20:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kris Hasson-Jones
Post by Sue Mason
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Streets of Fire.
Unashamed, pure, feel good fantasy musical.
Amen. I love that flick, and I showed it to my kids about a year ago
and they love it too.
That's not a movie I'd heard of. What can you tell me without too many
spoilers?
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall

Cally Soukup ***@pobox.com
mike weber
2003-12-31 00:28:06 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:04:05 +0000 (UTC), Cally Soukup
Post by Cally Soukup
Post by Kris Hasson-Jones
Post by Sue Mason
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Streets of Fire.
Unashamed, pure, feel good fantasy musical.
Amen. I love that flick, and I showed it to my kids about a year ago
and they love it too.
That's not a movie I'd heard of. What can you tell me without too many
spoilers?
Kind of a rock'n'rll action movie set in a retro-style world that
doesn't and didn't exist (the sort of look that "Batman" -- both the
original Burton film and the animated series -- does much better);
written/directed by Walter Hill, it is, as usual with Hill, an attempt
to make a Great American Existential Film.

Unlike most of Hill's output, it's actually reasonably watchable.

Mostly.

And it's part of one of my favourite trivia questions:

One person appears in all of the following five films: "Streets of
Fire", "Get Crazy!", "The Cat People" (the McDowell/Kinski version),
"Eating Rauol" and "Spinal Tap".

Who?
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Dan Kimmel
2003-12-31 01:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
One person appears in all of the following five films: "Streets of
Fire", "Get Crazy!", "The Cat People" (the McDowell/Kinski version),
"Eating Rauol" and "Spinal Tap".
Who?
Ed Begley, Jr., who is also hilarious attempting to use Yiddish in "A Mighty
Wind."
mike weber
2003-12-31 03:52:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 01:42:56 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by mike weber
One person appears in all of the following five films: "Streets of
Fire", "Get Crazy!", "The Cat People" (the McDowell/Kinski version),
"Eating Rauol" and "Spinal Tap".
Who?
Ed Begley, Jr., who is also hilarious attempting to use Yiddish in "A Mighty
Wind."
Very good -- "Spinal Tap" and "Streets of Fire" are the ones in which
most people don't realise he was there.
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Marilee J. Layman
2003-12-31 04:49:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 01:42:56 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by mike weber
One person appears in all of the following five films: "Streets of
Fire", "Get Crazy!", "The Cat People" (the McDowell/Kinski version),
"Eating Rauol" and "Spinal Tap".
Who?
Ed Begley, Jr., who is also hilarious attempting to use Yiddish in "A Mighty
Wind."
And is apparently in the upcoming TV series Kingdom Hospital.
--
Marilee J. Layman
cd skogsberg
2004-01-01 18:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 01:42:56 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by mike weber
One person appears in all of the following five films: "Streets of
Fire", "Get Crazy!", "The Cat People" (the McDowell/Kinski
version), "Eating Rauol" and "Spinal Tap".
Who?
Ed Begley, Jr., who is also hilarious attempting to use Yiddish in
"A Mighty Wind."
And is apparently in the upcoming TV series Kingdom Hospital.
Is this, perchance, a remake of the Danish TV series "Riget" ("The
Kingdom")?

/cd
--
"You have acquired a scroll entitled 'irk gleknow mizk'(n).--More--
This is an IBM Manual scroll.--More--
You are permanently confused." -- ADOM (a roguelike game)
Marilee J. Layman
2004-01-02 01:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by cd skogsberg
Post by mike weber
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 01:42:56 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by mike weber
One person appears in all of the following five films: "Streets of
Fire", "Get Crazy!", "The Cat People" (the McDowell/Kinski
version), "Eating Rauol" and "Spinal Tap".
Who?
Ed Begley, Jr., who is also hilarious attempting to use Yiddish in
"A Mighty Wind."
And is apparently in the upcoming TV series Kingdom Hospital.
Is this, perchance, a remake of the Danish TV series "Riget" ("The
Kingdom")?
No, it's apparently based on some Stephen King book.

Ah, it *is* based on Riget!

http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/ShowMainServlet/showid-21043/
--
Marilee J. Layman
Jackie
2004-01-04 20:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Payne
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Melody (aka SWALK): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067418/ - written by
Alan Parker, produced by David Puttnam, music by the Bee Gees, and with
Mark Lester and Jack Wild reprising their buddy act from Oliver!
Melody actors Billy Franks who played Burgess & Kay Skinner who played
Peggy has joined my Jack Wild Yahoo group. Kay also registered on
Jack Wild's website as well. Jack also posted a few messages.

http://www.jackwild.net

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jackwild

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/marklester

htt://groups.yahoo.com/group/jackwildandmarklestergroup
Brin-Marie McLaughlin
2004-01-01 03:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't
make anyone's "all time best" list and more than a
few "worst of all time" collections?
The Stepford Wives.

I love it, John hates it.




---
Brin-Marie McLaughlin
---
SPAMTRAP: To e-mail me, make the 'World' go away.
Journal: http://bindyree.diaryland.com/
Marilee J. Layman
2004-01-01 05:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brin-Marie McLaughlin
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't
make anyone's "all time best" list and more than a
few "worst of all time" collections?
The Stepford Wives.
I love it, John hates it.
How do you predict you'll like the new one?

http://www.hollywood.com/movies/detail/movie/415917

(And USA is making an "original" -- redoing The Goodbye Girl.)
--
Marilee J. Layman
Dan Kimmel
2004-01-01 14:03:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brin-Marie McLaughlin
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't
make anyone's "all time best" list and more than a
few "worst of all time" collections?
The Stepford Wives.
I love it, John hates it.
There's a remake coming out this summer.
mike weber
2004-01-01 18:19:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:03:55 GMT, "Dan Kimmel"
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by Brin-Marie McLaughlin
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't
make anyone's "all time best" list and more than a
few "worst of all time" collections?
The Stepford Wives.
I love it, John hates it.
There's a remake coming out this summer.
The horror, the horror.

Or perhaps "Oh, the humanity!"
--
The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns
something that will always be useful and which never will
grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.
==================================================
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
(Remove "INVALID" to reply)
Ian McDowell
2004-01-02 07:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by Brin-Marie McLaughlin
The Stepford Wives.
I love it, John hates it.
There's a remake coming out this summer.
The horror, the horror.
Or perhaps "Oh, the humanity!"
SPOILERS for the central premise of THE STEPFORD WIVES.

Well, it's not like they're remaking a masterpiece. Both original
novelist Ira Levin and screenwriter William Goldman have gone on
record about how frustrated they were when director Bryan Forbes
decided to cast his wife Nanette Newman as one of the Stepford Wives.
Both Goldman and Levin feel this blunted the satiric point and greatly
compromised the movie. The Stepford Husbands were, after all,
murdering their wives and replacing their robotic ones that looked
like buxom young PLAYBOY bunnies, and who waited on their husbands
hand and foot while wearing shorts and halter tops. Casting the
pleasant-looking but definitely mature Newman as a Wife necessitated
the film's odd sundresses-and-floppy-hats costuming.
Lee Ratner
2004-01-02 12:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian McDowell
Post by mike weber
Post by Dan Kimmel
Post by Brin-Marie McLaughlin
The Stepford Wives.
I love it, John hates it.
There's a remake coming out this summer.
The horror, the horror.
Or perhaps "Oh, the humanity!"
SPOILERS for the central premise of THE STEPFORD WIVES.
Well, it's not like they're remaking a masterpiece. Both original
novelist Ira Levin and screenwriter William Goldman have gone on
record about how frustrated they were when director Bryan Forbes
decided to cast his wife Nanette Newman as one of the Stepford Wives.
Both Goldman and Levin feel this blunted the satiric point and greatly
compromised the movie. The Stepford Husbands were, after all,
murdering their wives and replacing their robotic ones that looked
like buxom young PLAYBOY bunnies, and who waited on their husbands
hand and foot while wearing shorts and halter tops. Casting the
pleasant-looking but definitely mature Newman as a Wife necessitated
the film's odd sundresses-and-floppy-hats costuming.
OMG, its Chobits.
Nate Edel
2004-01-02 21:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Ratner
Post by Ian McDowell
like buxom young PLAYBOY bunnies, and who waited on their husbands
hand and foot while wearing shorts and halter tops. Casting the
pleasant-looking but definitely mature Newman as a Wife necessitated
the film's odd sundresses-and-floppy-hats costuming.
OMG, its Chobits.
[*]

I googled on it, and apparantly it's a manga or anime reference of some
sort, but a casual scan of pages google shows doesn't give me enough to make
the connection.
--
Nate Edel http://www.nkedel.com/

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. That's the only way
to be sure." -- Ripley, _Aliens_
Robert Sneddon
2004-01-02 22:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nate Edel
Post by Lee Ratner
OMG, its Chobits.
[*]
I googled on it, and apparantly it's a manga or anime reference of some
sort
Robots that look like cute girls and have all the appropriate parts who
end up living with a young high-school boy are a common staple of recent
anime. In Chobits the theme is intensified given where the Chobit's on
switch is located. In Hand Maid May the robot maids have a USB cable in
the same place.

Mahoromatic inverts the genre in that the robot maid Mahoro goes around
confiscating the lad's large collection of porn magazines and telling
him "Dirty thoughts are bad". It's about the only one of this type of
series I find worth watching as it actually has some sort of storyline.
--
Email me via nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
This address no longer accepts HTML posts.

Robert Sneddon
Wim Lewis
2004-01-05 01:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sneddon
Post by Lee Ratner
OMG, its Chobits.
[*]
Robots that look like cute girls and have all the appropriate parts who
end up living with a young high-school boy are a common staple of recent
anime. In Chobits the theme is intensified given where the Chobit's on
switch is located. In Hand Maid May the robot maids have a USB cable in
the same place.
(I haven't seen Hand Maid May. USB cables, sheesh.) In _Chobits_ I
think only the main robot character's on-switch is in her crotch
(for the comedic value?); I seem to remember another character's
on-switch being in a more innocuous place.

In _Chobits_ the surface storylines are about a teenage boy from the
farm living in the big city and studying for school, and living with
the cute, vulnerable, dependent robot character who he knows he shouldn't
feel attracted to (but does). There's also the question of the robot's
Mysterious Origin.

There's a less-prominent storyline which I think is pretty interesting
and somewhat like TSW turned inside out. The robots, which are
called "persocoms", occupy vaguely the same niche as PDAs or computers
do in RL. They can do web searches, remember appointments, send and
receive phone calls, and so forth. There are 4-inch-tall PDA
equivalents, though most of them seem to be human-sized. But they are
all in the form of attractive, cheerful, perky humans. It's apparently
becoming increasingly common for people to prefer persocom company to
human, and the female characters in the anime in particular are
generally insecure about being ignored in favor of a robot. (There
are male persocoms in the anime but not in the manga.) There are
hints that human-persocom couples may be becoming more common than
human-human couples. The anime is more about individual peoples' responses
to this (rarely talked about, but everywhere visible) situation,
rather than its effects on society in the large.
--
Wim Lewis <***@hhhh.org>, Seattle, WA, USA. PGP keyID 27F772C1
Philip Chee
2004-01-03 08:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lee Ratner
Post by Ian McDowell
compromised the movie. The Stepford Husbands were, after all,
murdering their wives and replacing their robotic ones that looked
like buxom young PLAYBOY bunnies, and who waited on their husbands
hand and foot while wearing shorts and halter tops. Casting the
pleasant-looking but definitely mature Newman as a Wife necessitated
the film's odd sundresses-and-floppy-hats costuming.
OMG, its Chobits.
itym AMGMS

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Lori Coulson
2004-01-05 17:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Kimmel
What movie favorites do you have that wouldn't make anyone's "all time best"
list and more than a few "worst of all time" collections?
Ok, I'll play:

My guilty pleasures are "disaster" films --

_Earthquake_
_The Towering Inferno_
_Dante's Peak_ (but not the idiotic _Volcano_)
_Poseidon Adventure_ (but the book is *still* better than the film)

Have not managed to catch _Deep Impact_ yet. Didn't like _Asteroid_.

_Meteorites_, made for TV, is a real hoot. IIRC, the setting is either
Roswell or nearby...

Does anyone know if Pearl Buck's _The Big Wave_ was ever filmed? That
could be an Oscar winner if handled correctly...

Lori Coulson
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