Discussion:
Best Related Work Hugo
(too old to reply)
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-01 02:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Last year I posted:

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 19:32:47 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <***@KeithLynch.net>
Subject: "Joseph [sic] Campbell is a <f-word> fascist"

Jeannette Ng, a Chinese/British author used her John Campbell award
acceptance speech to denounce John Campbell.

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 19:58:34 +0000 (UTC)
From: "Keith F. Lynch" <***@KeithLynch.net>
Subject: Re: "Joseph [sic] Campbell is a <f-word> fascist"
Freudian slip in the subject line?
If so, not mine. She definitely said "Joseph Campbell." Her
criticism made it clear she was indeed speaking of John W. Campbell,
the man for whom the award was named.

It would have been classier to simply refuse the nomination in the
first place.

Today, Jeannette Ng won the Best Related Work Hugo for that angry and
boorish rant. Her acceptance speech consisted of another such rant.

In related news, the Campbell Award has been renamed the Astounding
Award.

The Hugo, Astounding, and Lodestar winners can be found at
http://www.thehugoawards.org/

The livestream had some glitches, but on the whole it worked well.
The ceremony lasted nearly 3.5 hours.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Gary McGath
2020-08-01 09:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Today, Jeannette Ng won the Best Related Work Hugo for that angry and
boorish rant. Her acceptance speech consisted of another such rant.
In related news, the Campbell Award has been renamed the Astounding
Award.
The Hugo, Astounding, and Lodestar winners can be found at
http://www.thehugoawards.org/
The livestream had some glitches, but on the whole it worked well.
The ceremony lasted nearly 3.5 hours.
I enjoyed GRRM's accounts of the history of the awards. After an hour,
though, I decided to wait till morning to find out the results. My
Internet connection was having trouble, though it's fine so far this
morning.

Congratulations to all the winners, including the ones whose acceptance
speeches consisted mainly of complaints.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Peter Trei
2020-08-01 20:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Today, Jeannette Ng won the Best Related Work Hugo for that angry and
boorish rant. Her acceptance speech consisted of another such rant.
In related news, the Campbell Award has been renamed the Astounding
Award.
The Hugo, Astounding, and Lodestar winners can be found at
http://www.thehugoawards.org/
The livestream had some glitches, but on the whole it worked well.
The ceremony lasted nearly 3.5 hours.
I enjoyed GRRM's accounts of the history of the awards. After an hour,
though, I decided to wait till morning to find out the results. My
Internet connection was having trouble, though it's fine so far this
morning.
Congratulations to all the winners, including the ones whose acceptance
speeches consisted mainly of complaints.
What surprised me was the poor turnout. The video feed had a viewer count
at the top left. I started about an hour in, when it was 600 odd. By the Best
Novel it had barely tipped over 1000. Anyone know what registration was?

Pt
Scott Dorsey
2020-08-01 21:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
What surprised me was the poor turnout. The video feed had a viewer count
at the top left. I started about an hour in, when it was 600 odd. By the Best
Novel it had barely tipped over 1000. Anyone know what registration was?
There were three feeds, and I think the viewer count was for the feed you
were watching. However, even with all three together I don't think it went
much over 2,000 which is very disappointing.

Then again, perhaps it is good that we have the Rabid Puppies behind us and
the huge crowds drawn in by them.

I didn't vote for Ms. Ng for best related work, but I can understand why it
was put there. Even if you don't agree with her, you have to give her credit
for drama. I somewhat agree with her but I think she should learn the
difference between fascism and imperialism and also learn some of Campbell's
tradition of deliberately advocating ludicrous positions in order to get
people to think.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Gary McGath
2020-08-01 23:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
I didn't vote for Ms. Ng for best related work, but I can understand why it
was put there. Even if you don't agree with her, you have to give her credit
for drama. I somewhat agree with her but I think she should learn the
difference between fascism and imperialism and also learn some of Campbell's
tradition of deliberately advocating ludicrous positions in order to get
people to think.
I get the impression that some people are in the process of cancelling
GRRM. Was his sin saying good things about Asimov and Campbell, or
something else? I didn't watch the whole thing.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Scott Dorsey
2020-08-02 00:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Post by Scott Dorsey
I didn't vote for Ms. Ng for best related work, but I can understand why it
was put there. Even if you don't agree with her, you have to give her credit
for drama. I somewhat agree with her but I think she should learn the
difference between fascism and imperialism and also learn some of Campbell's
tradition of deliberately advocating ludicrous positions in order to get
people to think.
I get the impression that some people are in the process of cancelling
GRRM. Was his sin saying good things about Asimov and Campbell, or
something else? I didn't watch the whole thing.
I have no idea. Perhaps people are just upset about him spending all his
time talking about the history of the award when that history is very much
centered on old white guys. Some people just want to close their eyes to
history when it is not pleasant.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-08-02 14:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
I get the impression that some people are in the process of cancelling
GRRM. Was his sin saying good things about Asimov and Campbell, or
something else? I didn't watch the whole thing.
"Cancelling" him? I don't suppose you mean hiring a hitman to
get rid of him; do you mean ceasing to read him?

I did that midway through the first volume of _GoT_. Someone had
lent it to me, and I read through it; he's a skilled writer and
great at characterization, so I went on turning pages until there
was either a telephone call or a knock on the door, I forget
which. After that, I closed the book and never opened it again.
As all here know, I don't do grimth, and Martin does brilliantly
realized, three-dimensional characters and then kills them
horribly, one by one.

I didn't throw the book against the wall; it didn't belong to me.
But I gave it back to the lender.

"That day we read no further." --Dante
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Gary McGath
2020-08-02 16:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gary McGath
I get the impression that some people are in the process of cancelling
GRRM. Was his sin saying good things about Asimov and Campbell, or
something else? I didn't watch the whole thing.
That wasn't Scott. That was me. By "cancelling," I meant regarding him
as a person unfit for fannish society.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
"Cancelling" him? I don't suppose you mean hiring a hitman to
get rid of him; do you mean ceasing to read him?
I did that midway through the first volume of _GoT_. Someone had
lent it to me, and I read through it; he's a skilled writer and
great at characterization, so I went on turning pages until there
was either a telephone call or a knock on the door, I forget
which. After that, I closed the book and never opened it again.
As all here know, I don't do grimth, and Martin does brilliantly
realized, three-dimensional characters and then kills them
horribly, one by one.
I made it through the whole book, but I found it too depressing to
continue with the subsequent books. I haven't watched the TV show
either, but then, I watch very little TV.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-02 18:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps people are just upset about him spending all his time
talking about the history of the award when that history is very
much centered on old white guys.
A woman first won a Hugo award 60 years ago. It's difficult to tell
when the first POC won one, since, quite reasonably, fandom has always
been pretty much colorblind. As is publishing in general, since
writers submit manuscripts. They don't typically have in-person
interviews, or attach their photos to their manuscripts.

As for age, the early winners are old *now*, since that's how time
works. But many of them were quite young at the time. I'm not going
to take the effort to find the younges Hugo winner ever, but the
youngest who won at the first Hugo award ceremony, in 1953, was 28.
Some people just want to close their eyes to history when it is not
pleasant.
Do you also find the moon landings unpleasant? All 12 people who
walked on the moon were white guys. The six who are still living
are now all old white guys.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-02 07:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Post by Scott Dorsey
I didn't vote for Ms. Ng for best related work, but I can understand why it
was put there. Even if you don't agree with her, you have to give her credit
for drama. I somewhat agree with her but I think she should learn the
difference between fascism and imperialism and also learn some of Campbell's
tradition of deliberately advocating ludicrous positions in order to get
people to think.
I get the impression that some people are in the process of cancelling
GRRM. Was his sin saying good things about Asimov and Campbell, or
something else? I didn't watch the whole thing.
That was part of it, but making the ceremony almost four hours long was right up there. That also explains why the attendance may have been so low by the end. Many people said they gave up (e.g.) an hour in when it was clear they would have to stay up until 4AM to hear all the results. And he also mispronounced several finalists' names, which annoyed many people, including the finalists themselves, who had provided phonetic pronunciations at ConZealand's request.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Gary McGath
2020-08-02 09:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Gary McGath
I get the impression that some people are in the process of cancelling
GRRM. Was his sin saying good things about Asimov and Campbell, or
something else? I didn't watch the whole thing.
That was part of it, but making the ceremony almost four hours long was right up there. That also explains why the attendance may have been so low by the end. Many people said they gave up (e.g.) an hour in when it was clear they would have to stay up until 4AM to hear all the results. And he also mispronounced several finalists' names, which annoyed many people, including the finalists themselves, who had provided phonetic pronunciations at ConZealand's request.
Award ceremonies are always tediously slow. It's a tradition. Since
there wasn't a hall full of people to share the tedium, I suppose he
felt obligated to provide it all himself.

I can definitely relate to frustration at having names mispronounced. It
infuriates me every time someone pronounces my name "McGrath," though I
try not to let it show.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Andy Leighton
2020-08-02 11:46:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 05:48:02 -0400,
Post by Gary McGath
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Gary McGath
I get the impression that some people are in the process of cancelling
GRRM. Was his sin saying good things about Asimov and Campbell, or
something else? I didn't watch the whole thing.
That was part of it, but making the ceremony almost four hours long was right up there. That also explains why the attendance may have been so low by the end. Many people said they gave up (e.g.) an hour in when it was clear they would have to stay up until 4AM to hear all the results. And he also mispronounced several finalists' names, which annoyed many people, including the finalists themselves, who had provided phonetic pronunciations at ConZealand's request.
Award ceremonies are always tediously slow. It's a tradition.
Not at all. 2005 (the only Hugo ceremony I've been to) was only around
90 mins. If the ceremony was aimed at that kind of length I think more
people would be happier. Apparently earlier in the week it had a 2 hour
slot which was extended.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
Scott Dorsey
2020-08-02 12:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Leighton
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 05:48:02 -0400,
Post by Gary McGath
Award ceremonies are always tediously slow. It's a tradition.
Not at all. 2005 (the only Hugo ceremony I've been to) was only around
90 mins. If the ceremony was aimed at that kind of length I think more
people would be happier. Apparently earlier in the week it had a 2 hour
slot which was extended.
I think it's false to blame GRRM for the long running time and the slow pace.
With the way it was assembled from both live and prerecorded segments,
the director could have sped things up at any point by dropping or curtating
some of the material as needed.

My guess is that with the sheer number of live feeds required, the thing was
deliberately padded out because the people dealing with the incoming feeds
were working like one-armed paperhangers to get everything cued up and ready
in time to go on, and the director figured it was better to have too much
padding rather than too little.

Remember the crew doesn't know who won until the last minute either, so
everybody nominated either needs to have a prerecorded acceptance speech or
needs to be up and ready on a video connection so they can be dropped into
place if they win. The situation in the control booth is an order of
magnitude more frantic than at a normal awards ceremony.

I wasn't backstage for this one but I'm sure we'll hear soon enough from
the people who were. There were some obvious miscues and errors but there
were also a couple truly brilliant saves.

I also think it is sad that nobody ever mentioned that the first remote video
presentation at Worldcon was conducted by Arthur C. Clarke from a studio in
Sri Lanka over two satellite hops and a lot of patch cables.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Paul Dormer
2020-08-02 13:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
curtating
Not a word I was familiar with and Chambers gives curtate only as an
adjective: "usually applied to the distance of a planet from the sun or
earth projected on the plane of the ecliptic."
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-03 13:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Scott Dorsey
curtating
Not a word I was familiar with and Chambers gives curtate only as an
adjective: "usually applied to the distance of a planet from the sun or
earth projected on the plane of the ecliptic."
Pretty sure he typo-ed "curating".

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Scott Dorsey
2020-08-03 16:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Scott Dorsey
curtating
Not a word I was familiar with and Chambers gives curtate only as an
adjective: "usually applied to the distance of a planet from the sun or
earth projected on the plane of the ecliptic."
Pretty sure he typo-ed "curating".
No, I meant "shortening by removal of parts." May be IBM-ese.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Peter Trei
2020-08-03 16:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Scott Dorsey
curtating
Not a word I was familiar with and Chambers gives curtate only as an
adjective: "usually applied to the distance of a planet from the sun or
earth projected on the plane of the ecliptic."
Pretty sure he typo-ed "curating".
No, I meant "shortening by removal of parts." May be IBM-ese.
Related, I believe, to 'curtail'.

Pt
Paul Dormer
2020-08-03 17:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Related, I believe, to 'curtail'.
Chambers says curtate is related to curt, from the Latin curtus, short.
Curtail, orig. spelled curtal, is from the Old French, courtault, from
the Latin curtus.

I imagine curtate the sort of word that will turn up in the Azed
crossword one of these days, but I don't recall it having happened yet.
Gary McGath
2020-08-04 10:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Peter Trei
Related, I believe, to 'curtail'.
Chambers says curtate is related to curt, from the Latin curtus, short.
Curtail, orig. spelled curtal, is from the Old French, courtault, from
the Latin curtus.
I imagine curtate the sort of word that will turn up in the Azed
crossword one of these days, but I don't recall it having happened yet.
Merriam-Webster online gives "curtate" only as an adjective meaning
"comparatively short or shortened," with a specialized meaning for
annuities. They advertise a paid version with 250,000 more words, so the
verb could be there.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Paul Dormer
2020-08-04 11:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Merriam-Webster online gives "curtate" only as an adjective meaning
"comparatively short or shortened," with a specialized meaning for
annuities. They advertise a paid version with 250,000 more words, so the
verb could be there.
I looked in the second edition complete Oxford (1989) and they give
specialised meanings in geometry, astronomy, economics and statistics,
all adjectival.

Following my comment about it being the sort of word that might appear in
the Azed crossword in The Observer, I searched the fifteensquared
crossword blogger site and could find no trace of the word ever appearing
in the life of that site (about ten year). Azed uses some pretty obscure
words. The latest one for which I have a published solution had pioy,
esloyne, myrobalan, eyeliad and mormops, to pick only a few.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-02 13:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Leighton
Not at all. 2005 (the only Hugo ceremony I've been to) was only around
90 mins.
Didn't the hosts that night claim they were going for the record for the
shortest Hugo ceremony ever?

I was back-stage for that one, and you can't actually hear what's being
said on stage if you're back-stage at the SECC.
Andy Leighton
2020-08-02 17:42:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:42 +0100 (BST),
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Andy Leighton
Not at all. 2005 (the only Hugo ceremony I've been to) was only around
90 mins.
Didn't the hosts that night claim they were going for the record for the
shortest Hugo ceremony ever?
I was back-stage for that one, and you can't actually hear what's being
said on stage if you're back-stage at the SECC.
Maybe I can't remember back that long. I know there was a deliberate
choice to go for a short ceremony. With the extra categories (especially
the extra drama category) I don't think we will see a ceremony that
short again, but there is no reason why 2 hours shouldn't be a
reasonable aim.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
Paul Dormer
2020-08-03 09:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Leighton
With the extra categories (especially
the extra drama category)
Best Dramatic Presentation had been split by 2005. The first year with
the split was 2003 in Toronto.

Fourteen awards were given in 2005, but there were categories where more
than one recipient received a rocket. Plokta won best fanzine that year
and I think they got three rockets between them.

Before the ceremony I was locked in a room to assemble all the awards and
put masking tape on all the plaques in such a way that we could see which
award it was, but not the winner. I count 18 awards in this photography:

Loading Image...
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-04 23:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Before the [2005] ceremony I was locked in a room to assemble all
the awards and put masking tape on all the plaques in such a way
that we could see which award it was, but not the winner. I count
https://i.imgur.com/2FF7sZV.jpg
How many of the 18 were awarded? I'm sure at least one was intended
for permanent display at that and future Worldcons.

At the 2003 Worldon I assisted with site selection vote counting.
This was done in a small room adjacent to the large room where the
Hugos were soon to be awarded. The awards -- I'm assume that's what
was under there -- were in the room, covered with a cloth labeled
"none of your business."

There weren't enough chairs in that small room, so I said that I
thought I noticed a few chairs in the room next door, and then went
and got two of them. (I put them back when we were done.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-05 09:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
How many of the 18 were awarded? I'm sure at least one was intended
for permanent display at that and future Worldcons.
Those were all the ones given out at the ceremony. Fourteen actual
categories, but multiple rockets in four categories:

Best Related Book - both editors, Farah Mendlesohn and Edward James, got
rockets.

Best Dramatic Presentation, short form - Battlestar Galactica, 33. Both
writer Ronald D. Moore and director Michael Rymer got rockets.

Best Fanzine - Plokta. Alison Scott, Steve Davies and Mike Scott all got
rockets.

Best Website - SciFiction. Edited by Ellen Datlow, Craig Engler, general
manager. Two more rockets.

So I make that nineteen rockets given out at the ceremony. There must be
on hiding in that picture.

Incidentally, Best Dramatic Presentation Long Form was The Incredibles.
As it was both written by and directed by Brad Bird, he only got one
rocket.

In fact, we used 26 rockets in all. (I remember I was still in bed when
they got delivered.) It is traditional that the Hugo Administrator and
the director of the ceremony gets one (and we had to pay for them - the
convention was a bit short of cash). The two con chairs each got one.
One went to the Hugo exhibit and one to the base designer.

And we had a "special". Conspiracy, the 1987 Worldcon in Brighton was
nominally chaired by Malcolm Edwards, but he had to step down for
personal reasons in the run up to the convention. His name was kept as
chair but it was actually chaired by Paul Oldroyd. Paul did not get a
Hugo so someone found the base design for 1987 and new one was made and
presented to Paul at the Past UK Worldcons party one evening.
Torbjorn Lindgren
2020-08-02 22:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Andy Leighton
Not at all. 2005 (the only Hugo ceremony I've been to) was only around
90 mins.
Didn't the hosts that night claim they were going for the record for the
shortest Hugo ceremony ever?
Scouring the net for Hugo award ceremony streams I didn't find as many
as I'd hoped but I'll list the lengths for the ones I did find: 2:00
(1994), 1:46 (1997), 1:36 (2010), 2:20 (2017) and 1:45 (2018).

The lack of many of the older are understandable but Dubling 2019 not
either keeping theirs on Vimeo afterwards or better yet uploading it
to their Youtube channel afterwards where it would be preserved is...
disappointing.


Looking at the 2020 award ceremony stream the credits starts rolling
at 3:34 but there's approximately 16 minutes of "muzak" in the
beginning has been removed from all the "historical" stream so a fair
comparison length is 3:18.

So I think it's fair to say that it was probably 50% to 100% longer
than "normal" and likely pretty far up in the length curve (could even
be the longest). And watching random parts of the stream I certainly
think it feels way, WAY too slow paced as a AWARDS ceremony.

There might have been technical reasons why it had to be paced that
way, just coordinating all the live streams without prematurely
revealing the various winners must have been a nightmare.

Unfortunately that still doesn't change that the result feels like it
drags it's feet the entire time and/or it's a GRRM monologue with
occasional awards.

If they did need to take things slow due to all the remote stuff
caused by Covid-19 they should have said that, but while I've not
watched the entire stream I can't see any signs they did so, it should
really have been in the prominent sidebar.

Setting expectations correctly is important, if you explain WHY things
have to be done a certain way it's much more likely people will accept
it, especially since Covid-19 is actually a good explaination.
Kevrob
2020-08-02 13:17:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sunday, August 2, 2020 at 5:48:06 AM UTC-4, Gary McGath wrote:

[snip]
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names mispronounced. It
infuriates me every time someone pronounces my name "McGrath," though I
try not to let it show.
Can't be helped. I have some McGrath ancestors, and of course,
they pronounced that "M'Graw."
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Someone Else
2020-08-02 18:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names mispronounced. It
infuriates me every time someone pronounces my name "McGrath," though I
try not to let it show.
From a pseudonymous source on the Internet:

I was once in a poetry workshop where a guy submitted an entire poem
about how frustrated he was because no one ever pronounced his name
correctly. Some brave soul raised his hand and was like, "uh, so just
wondering...how should we be pronouncing it?"

The writer went OFF.
Gary McGath
2020-08-03 11:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Someone Else
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names mispronounced. It
infuriates me every time someone pronounces my name "McGrath," though I
try not to let it show.
I was once in a poetry workshop where a guy submitted an entire poem
about how frustrated he was because no one ever pronounced his name
correctly. Some brave soul raised his hand and was like, "uh, so just
wondering...how should we be pronouncing it?"
The writer went OFF.
How about something like this:
Say my name as MCGATH,
Or you will feel my wrath.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Kevrob
2020-08-03 12:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Post by Someone Else
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names mispronounced. It
infuriates me every time someone pronounces my name "McGrath," though I
try not to let it show.
I was once in a poetry workshop where a guy submitted an entire poem
about how frustrated he was because no one ever pronounced his name
correctly. Some brave soul raised his hand and was like, "uh, so just
wondering...how should we be pronouncing it?"
The writer went OFF.
Say my name as MCGATH,
Or you will feel my wrath.
But from a London toff,
That might come out like WROTH.
--
Kevin R
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-03 13:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Post by Someone Else
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names mispronounced. It
infuriates me every time someone pronounces my name "McGrath," though I
try not to let it show.
I was once in a poetry workshop where a guy submitted an entire poem
about how frustrated he was because no one ever pronounced his name
correctly. Some brave soul raised his hand and was like, "uh, so just
wondering...how should we be pronouncing it?"
The writer went OFF.
Say my name as MCGATH,
Or you will feel my wrath.
All three of my names (first middle/birth, and last) are regularly mis-pronounced.

Evelyn: It's "EV-a-lin", not "EEV-a-lin". The latter is usually by a Brit or someone used to British names. It's also usually a man's name when pronounced that way. I'm not offended by it, but don't call me "Evie" or Evvie".

Chimelis: Spanish (Majorcan), by way of Puerto Rico; my guess is that before that it was Greek ("Ximelis" perhaps). It's "chih-MEH-liss", not "CHIH-meh-liss" or "CHIME-less" or any of several other manglings. If you are going to put it on a certificate or plaque or trophy, please try to spell it correctly. (My brother has one award with an "N" instead of the "M", and another that left off the "S".)

Leeper: Like "sleeper" without the "S". It's not pronounced like "leper", nor is it "Lapeer" (la-PEER), which was a common mispronunciation in Michigan, where "Lapeer" is a very common geographical name.

Of the three, I am most annoyed at the mispronunciation of the last--it really is just the way it looks.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Peter Trei
2020-08-03 15:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Gary McGath
Post by Someone Else
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names mispronounced. It
infuriates me every time someone pronounces my name "McGrath," though I
try not to let it show.
I was once in a poetry workshop where a guy submitted an entire poem
about how frustrated he was because no one ever pronounced his name
correctly. Some brave soul raised his hand and was like, "uh, so just
wondering...how should we be pronouncing it?"
The writer went OFF.
Say my name as MCGATH,
Or you will feel my wrath.
All three of my names (first middle/birth, and last) are regularly mis-pronounced.
Evelyn: It's "EV-a-lin", not "EEV-a-lin". The latter is usually by a Brit or someone used to British names. It's also usually a man's name when pronounced that way. I'm not offended by it, but don't call me "Evie" or Evvie".
Chimelis: Spanish (Majorcan), by way of Puerto Rico; my guess is that before that it was Greek ("Ximelis" perhaps). It's "chih-MEH-liss", not "CHIH-meh-liss" or "CHIME-less" or any of several other manglings. If you are going to put it on a certificate or plaque or trophy, please try to spell it correctly. (My brother has one award with an "N" instead of the "M", and another that left off the "S".)
Leeper: Like "sleeper" without the "S". It's not pronounced like "leper", nor is it "Lapeer" (la-PEER), which was a common mispronunciation in Michigan, where "Lapeer" is a very common geographical name.
Of the three, I am most annoyed at the mispronunciation of the last--it really is just the way it looks.
I'm very very used to my name being misspelled or mispronounced, to point that I just roll with it unless
it's the start of a longer relationship or it's actually important.

One that did stick in my craw was when I worked at Nokia, and the IT department misspelled my name
when setting up my account. They refused to fix it. In unrelated news, Nokia went bust soon afterward.

Pt
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-03 17:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
One that did stick in my craw was when I worked at Nokia, and the IT department misspelled my name
when setting up my account. They refused to fix it. In unrelated news, Nokia went bust soon afterward.
I don't think Nokia went bust; at least, I am still receiving my Lucent pension checks from them, and they seem to be around in general.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Peter Trei
2020-08-03 18:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Peter Trei
One that did stick in my craw was when I worked at Nokia, and the IT department misspelled my name
when setting up my account. They refused to fix it. In unrelated news, Nokia went bust soon afterward.
I don't think Nokia went bust; at least, I am still receiving my Lucent pension checks from them, and they seem to be around in general.
Fair enough. I should have said 'went into eclipse'.

Pt
Gary McGath
2020-08-04 10:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Evelyn: It's "EV-a-lin", not "EEV-a-lin". The latter is usually by a Brit or someone used to British names. It's also usually a man's name when pronounced that way. I'm not offended by it, but don't call me "Evie" or Evvie".
Chimelis: Spanish (Majorcan), by way of Puerto Rico; my guess is that before that it was Greek ("Ximelis" perhaps). It's "chih-MEH-liss", not "CHIH-meh-liss" or "CHIME-less" or any of several other manglings. If you are going to put it on a certificate or plaque or trophy, please try to spell it correctly. (My brother has one award with an "N" instead of the "M", and another that left off the "S".)
Leeper: Like "sleeper" without the "S". It's not pronounced like "leper", nor is it "Lapeer" (la-PEER), which was a common mispronunciation in Michigan, where "Lapeer" is a very common geographical name.
Of the three, I am most annoyed at the mispronunciation of the last--it really is just the way it looks.
Fortunately, I've been pronouncing your first and last names correctly
in my mind and didn't know your middle name, which I'm sure I'd have
gotten wrong.

I promise not to call you "Evil" as a nickname. At least as long as you
don't incinerate any cities.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Mike Van Pelt
2020-08-03 17:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names
mispronounced. It infuriates me every time someone pronounces
my name "McGrath," though I try not to let it show.
Probably like my annoyance when companies mispell my last
name. ("Vanpelt" is the least of it... I've seen all kinds
of wacky stuff. Probably some of it was due to misprogramed
computers that blew bits all over the floor when they hit
a space in the middle of a last name.)
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Kevrob
2020-08-03 18:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names
mispronounced. It infuriates me every time someone pronounces
my name "McGrath," though I try not to let it show.
Probably like my annoyance when companies mispell my last
name. ("Vanpelt" is the least of it... I've seen all kinds
of wacky stuff. Probably some of it was due to misprogramed
computers that blew bits all over the floor when they hit
a space in the middle of a last name.)
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?

Must be "Peanuts" fans.

Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
--
Kevin R
Mike Van Pelt
2020-08-03 23:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?
Must be "Peanuts" fans.
Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when
I do, it's someone manually doing it "like they do in
the Old Country". Mostly, it's not making it two words.
But I've also gotten stuff addressed to a last name of
"Van". Or "V. Pelt".

Once, I got a document that had it as "Mike V. Anpelt".
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Kevrob
2020-08-04 02:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Kevrob
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?
Must be "Peanuts" fans.
Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when
I do, it's someone manually doing it "like they do in
the Old Country". Mostly, it's not making it two words.
But I've also gotten stuff addressed to a last name of
"Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Once, I got a document that had it as "Mike V. Anpelt".
I can get:

Robinson, Robison, Robeson and Robertson.

I like to say, "Like Jackie, Brooks or Frank!"
I think the young ones have heard of Jackie, at least.
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Kevrob
2020-08-04 02:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Kevrob
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?
Must be "Peanuts" fans.
Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when
I do, it's someone manually doing it "like they do in
the Old Country". Mostly, it's not making it two words.
But I've also gotten stuff addressed to a last name of
"Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Once, I got a document that had it as "Mike V. Anpelt".
Robinson, Robison, Robeson and Robertson.
I like to say, "Like Jackie, Brooks or Frank!"
I think the young ones have heard of Jackie, at least.
additional: Roberson, plus versions that double the "b."
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-04 07:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Kevrob
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?
Must be "Peanuts" fans.
Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when
I do, it's someone manually doing it "like they do in
the Old Country". Mostly, it's not making it two words.
But I've also gotten stuff addressed to a last name of
"Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Once, I got a document that had it as "Mike V. Anpelt".
Robinson, Robison, Robeson and Robertson.
I like to say, "Like Jackie, Brooks or Frank!"
I think the young ones have heard of Jackie, at least.
ObSF: Not Kim Stanley or Spider?

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Kevrob
2020-08-04 17:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Kevrob
I like to say, "Like Jackie, Brooks or Frank!"
I think the young ones have heard of Jackie, at least.
ObSF: Not Kim Stanley or Spider?
With fen? Sure. Not in Mundania.
--
Kevin R
Paul Dormer
2020-08-04 17:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
With fen? Sure. Not in Mundania.
I used to say Dormer as in windows. Now I say as in Natalie.

Both Natalie Dormer and Richard Dormer were in Game of Thrones, which
amuses me.

Incidentally, mentioning dormer windows reminds me of my grandfather. He
lived in a rather nice house in Blackheath in south east London, a house
he acquired when his previous house was hit by a V1. The deal was if you
found an empty property after you were bombed out, you could inform the
authorities and move in. This house belonged to a retired colonel who,
as soon as WWII broke out, had moved to Cornwall.

I remember the house, and I remember it had dormer windows. For years I
thought they were named after our family.
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-04 23:21:01 UTC
Permalink
He lived in a rather nice house in Blackheath in south east London,
a house he acquired when his previous house was hit by a V1. The
deal was if you found an empty property after you were bombed out,
you could inform the authorities and move in. This house belonged
to a retired colonel who, as soon as WWII broke out, had moved to
Cornwall.
Who had title to the empty property, your grandfather or the retired
colonel?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-05 09:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Who had title to the empty property, your grandfather or the retired
colonel?
Thereby hangs a tale.

The colonel owned it but decided to stay in Cornwall after the war. He
offered to sell the house to my grandfather. As my father used to say,
"Nobody owned their own house in those days" so he kept renting it.
Blackheath is a fairly posh area of London, it was a nice house. It
probably is worth a lot of money these days.

OK, my father was probably exaggerating about nobody owning their own
house, but anyway, my grandfather didn't buy it. My father married in
1952 and he and his young family moved north in 1957 and a few years
later my paternal grandparents moved north to live on the same town as us,
moving into an old persons' bungalow, quite a comedown. (My grandfather
was born in 1890, so he'd have been in his early seventies by then. He
died in 1972.)
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-04 23:43:39 UTC
Permalink
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when I do,
it's someone manually doing it "like they do in the Old Country".
Mostly, it's not making it two words. But I've also gotten stuff
addressed to a last name of "Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Never mind how it's spelled. Or how it's pronounced. Focus on what's
important: How is it sorted? If you were to write a novel, should I
shelve it under V or under P?
Once, I got a document that had it as "Mike V. Anpelt".
I didn't mind when Analog magazine mangled my name in an unusual way.
I did mind when lots of random junk mailers mangled it in the same
way, since it meant that Analog had sold my name and address without
my permission. So I canceled my subscription, and told them why I was
doing so.
I can get: Robinson, Robison, Robeson and Robertson.
I like to say, "Like Jackie, Brooks or Frank!"
I think the young ones have heard of Jackie, at least.
ObSF: Not Kim Stanley or Spider?
ObBadSF: Not the protagonists of Lost in Space? "Warning,
Bill Robison!" Oops, I mean, "Caution, Phil Robeson!" Or
was it, "Look out, Jill Robertson!"?

ObFantasy: Endora always misspoke Darrin's name. (She was
played by Agnes Moorehead, whose middle name was Robertson.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Kevrob
2020-08-05 03:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when I do,
it's someone manually doing it "like they do in the Old Country".
Mostly, it's not making it two words. But I've also gotten stuff
addressed to a last name of "Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Never mind how it's spelled. Or how it's pronounced. Focus on what's
important: How is it sorted? If you were to write a novel, should I
shelve it under V or under P?
Once, I got a document that had it as "Mike V. Anpelt".
I didn't mind when Analog magazine mangled my name in an unusual way.
I did mind when lots of random junk mailers mangled it in the same
way, since it meant that Analog had sold my name and address without
my permission. So I canceled my subscription, and told them why I was
doing so.
Your own "Ms Chanandler Bong" story!
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I can get: Robinson, Robison, Robeson and Robertson.
I like to say, "Like Jackie, Brooks or Frank!"
I think the young ones have heard of Jackie, at least.
ObSF: Not Kim Stanley or Spider?
ObBadSF: Not the protagonists of Lost in Space? "Warning,
Bill Robison!" Oops, I mean, "Caution, Phil Robeson!" Or
was it, "Look out, Jill Robertson!"?
I heard "Warning! Warning!.." jokes enough, not to let
people have an opening like that. I'd watch "LIS" if
I could win the family vote that evening. I wasn't quite
9 when the show debuted. None of my siblings were named
John, Maureen, Judy, Penny nor Will. Neither did we have
a Craig, June nor Tam. I do have a brother named Tim.

https://lostinspace.fandom.com/wiki/Gold_Key_Comics_List
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFantasy: Endora always misspoke Darrin's name. (She was
played by Agnes Moorehead, whose middle name was Robertson.)
Moorehead had a long list of radio, film and TV credits.
I enjoyed her on "Bewitched," but viewers as young as I
was wouldn't have known that.
--
Kevin R
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-07 00:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObBadSF: Not the protagonists of Lost in Space? "Warning,
Bill Robison!" Oops, I mean, "Caution, Phil Robeson!" Or
was it, "Look out, Jill Robertson!"?
I heard "Warning! Warning!.." jokes enough, not to let people have
an opening like that.
Uh, I deliberately got every part of that wrong. It was "Danger,
Will Robinson." Not "Warning."
I'd watch "LIS" if I could win the family vote that evening.
I wasn't quite 9 when the show debuted. None of my siblings
were named John, Maureen, Judy, Penny nor Will.
What about your parents' names? Or your wife's? Or your childrens'?

What about Zachary, Don, or The? (Okay, not Robinsons. Zachary Smith,
Don West, and The Robot.)
Neither did we have a Craig, June nor Tam.
Maureen was played by June (Lockhart), but what's the significance of
Craig and Tam?
I do have a brother named Tim.
Did he ever fall down a well?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Kevrob
2020-08-07 01:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObBadSF: Not the protagonists of Lost in Space? "Warning,
Bill Robison!" Oops, I mean, "Caution, Phil Robeson!" Or
was it, "Look out, Jill Robertson!"?
I heard "Warning! Warning!.." jokes enough, not to let people have
an opening like that.
Uh, I deliberately got every part of that wrong. It was "Danger,
Will Robinson." Not "Warning."
Good ol 'Class M3 Model B9 shouted "Warning!" often enough.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I'd watch "LIS" if I could win the family vote that evening.
I wasn't quite 9 when the show debuted. None of my siblings
were named John, Maureen, Judy, Penny nor Will.
What about your parents' names?
They had very different names.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Or your wife's? Or your childrens'?
Always single, always childless, here. If I ever
named a kid "William" I'd call him "Liam." I was
a big fan of he Clancy Brothers.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
What about Zachary, Don, or The? (Okay, not Robinsons.
Zachary Smith, Don West, and The Robot.)
Neither did we have a Craig, June nor Tam.
Maureen was played by June (Lockhart), but what's the significance of
Craig and Tam?
I do have a brother named Tim.
Did he ever fall down a well?
No. I was referencing the _other_ "Space Family Robinson,"
as per the link you snipped.

https://lostinspace.fandom.com/wiki/Gold_Key_Comics_List

https://www.comics.org/issue/17318/cover/4/

Which became:

https://www.comics.org/issue/19766/cover/4/

The two companies made a deal.
--
Kevin R
Post by Keith F. Lynch
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 10:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Uh, I deliberately got every part of that wrong. It was "Danger,
Will Robinson." Not "Warning."
Reminds me of the skit someone published during the first run of Babylon
5.

The Minbari have installed a new defence system on Babylon 5 and give it
a test.

"Danger, John Sheridan, danger, John Sheridan," comes out of the
speakers.

"Lennier, why are you looking like that?"

(And if you don't get the joke, look up who played Lennier, and what else
he played.)
Mike Van Pelt
2020-08-05 18:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when I do,
it's someone manually doing it "like they do in the Old Country".
Mostly, it's not making it two words. But I've also gotten stuff
addressed to a last name of "Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Never mind how it's spelled. Or how it's pronounced. Focus on what's
important: How is it sorted? If you were to write a novel, should I
shelve it under V or under P?
Heh. I don't think I've seen anyone sort it under "P", unless
they dropped the "Van" entirely. At least, not often; if
someone's not finding my name in a list it should be on, I
suggest looking under "P", but I don't recall that ever helping.
But in the Netherlands, apparently, it would be sorted under "P".
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-05 19:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when I do,
it's someone manually doing it "like they do in the Old Country".
Mostly, it's not making it two words. But I've also gotten stuff
addressed to a last name of "Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Never mind how it's spelled. Or how it's pronounced. Focus on what's
important: How is it sorted? If you were to write a novel, should I
shelve it under V or under P?
Heh. I don't think I've seen anyone sort it under "P", unless
they dropped the "Van" entirely. At least, not often; if
someone's not finding my name in a list it should be on, I
suggest looking under "P", but I don't recall that ever helping.
But in the Netherlands, apparently, it would be sorted under "P".
See "Lustbader, Eric Van".

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
p***@gmail.com
2020-08-05 22:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I don't often see the "v" uncapitalized. Usually when I do,
it's someone manually doing it "like they do in the Old Country".
Mostly, it's not making it two words. But I've also gotten stuff
addressed to a last name of "Van". Or "V. Pelt".
Never mind how it's spelled. Or how it's pronounced. Focus on what's
important: How is it sorted? If you were to write a novel, should I
shelve it under V or under P?
Heh. I don't think I've seen anyone sort it under "P", unless
they dropped the "Van" entirely. At least, not often; if
someone's not finding my name in a list it should be on, I
suggest looking under "P", but I don't recall that ever helping.
But in the Netherlands, apparently, it would be sorted under "P".
See "Lustbader, Eric Van".
Did Ludwig Van Beethoven look for his name on lists under V or B?

pt
Paul Dormer
2020-08-06 10:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Did Ludwig Van Beethoven look for his name on lists under V or B?
In record shops, Ludwig van Beethoven is usually sorted under 'B'.

Mind you, I always sort Peter Maxwell Davies under 'M', even though
Maxwell was a given name. Everyone called him Max, anyway.
Tim Merrigan
2020-08-06 19:43:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
Did Ludwig Van Beethoven look for his name on lists under V or B?
In record shops, Ludwig van Beethoven is usually sorted under 'B'.
Isn't that Ludwig _von_ Beethoven, German rather than Dutch?
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Kevrob
2020-08-06 20:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
Did Ludwig Van Beethoven look for his name on lists under V or B?
In record shops, Ludwig van Beethoven is usually sorted under 'B'.
Isn't that Ludwig _von_ Beethoven, German rather than Dutch?
--
LvB has Dutch ancestry.

https://focusonbelgium.be/en/facts/did-you-know-ludwig-van-beethovens-roots-lie-mechelen
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
p***@gmail.com
2020-08-06 20:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Tim Merrigan
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
Did Ludwig Van Beethoven look for his name on lists under V or B?
In record shops, Ludwig van Beethoven is usually sorted under 'B'.
Isn't that Ludwig _von_ Beethoven, German rather than Dutch?
--
LvB has Dutch ancestry.
https://focusonbelgium.be/en/facts/did-you-know-ludwig-van-beethovens-roots-lie-mechelen
Wikipedia uses 'van', fwiw.

More to the point, what happens is that native English speakers tend to try
to ram foreign names into English-name shaped holes. We're used to single or
hyphenated last names, not last names with spaces in them. VanBeethoven,
Vanbeethoven, or Van-Beethoven would preserve the linkage, but 'van Beethoven'
looks like two names.

'Beethoven' has become the default identifier for that composer in English,
and no longer has to consider German/Dutch rules.

Its similar to "The daVinci Code", where Brown was either ignorant, or didn't
care, what the 'da' meant.

pt
Gary McGath
2020-08-06 22:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
Did Ludwig Van Beethoven look for his name on lists under V or B?
In record shops, Ludwig van Beethoven is usually sorted under 'B'.
Isn't that Ludwig _von_ Beethoven, German rather than Dutch?
No, "von" indicates noble status in a German name, which Beethoven
wasn't entitled to. His family had used "van" in the name at least since
his grandfather's time. The name was found most often in what is now
Belgium.

His name is always alphabetized under B, and the "van" is written in
lower case. "Van" means "of" or "from" in Dutch, so it would be like
Leonardo da Vinci, only more formalized as a last name rather than a
toponymic. You could think of him as "Ludwig of the Beet Farm."
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Scott Dorsey
2020-08-06 23:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
No, "von" indicates noble status in a German name, which Beethoven
wasn't entitled to. His family had used "van" in the name at least since
his grandfather's time. The name was found most often in what is now
Belgium.
I like to slushiy a little bit of the old Ludwig Von.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 10:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
No, "von" indicates noble status in a German name, which Beethoven
wasn't entitled to. His family had used "van" in the name at least since
his grandfather's time. The name was found most often in what is now
Belgium.
I recall hearing that when Beethoven was involved in a court case in
Vienna he was treated with deference until it was realised that van
didn't have the same connotations of nobility that von has in German.

Incidentally, there's another composer associated with Vienna, Anton
Webern, sometimes given in full as Anton von Webern. Turns out the
family name was originally Weber but his branch of the family was
ennobled back in the eighteenth century and at that time when someone was
ennobled, the family name was put into the genitive case.
Gary McGath
2020-08-07 13:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Incidentally, there's another composer associated with Vienna, Anton
Webern, sometimes given in full as Anton von Webern. Turns out the
family name was originally Weber but his branch of the family was
ennobled back in the eighteenth century and at that time when someone was
ennobled, the family name was put into the genitive case.
Genitive, not dative? The preposition "von" takes the dative case, and
the dative plural adds an "n" or "en" at the end. That would make him
Anton of the Weavers (though he never performed with Pete Seeger).

The earlier composer Carl Maria von Weber was the son of Franz Anton von
Weber. I can't find any information on whether Weber and Webern were
related.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 16:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Genitive, not dative? The preposition "von" takes the dative case, and
the dative plural adds an "n" or "en" at the end. That would make him
Anton of the Weavers (though he never performed with Pete Seeger).
Possibly. I never did get the hang of German cases.
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-07 00:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
In record shops, Ludwig van Beethoven is usually sorted under 'B'.
Mind you, I always sort Peter Maxwell Davies under 'M', even though
Maxwell was a given name. Everyone called him Max, anyway.
What about Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy? Osama bin Laden? Fidel
Castro Ruz? Mao Tse Tung? Mao Zedong? Jesus Christ? Joan of Arc?
Santa Claus? Kim Jong Un? Cecil Calvert, 2nd Baron Baltimore?
Queen Elizabeth II?

How do you file your Ace doubles? How about your DVD of Das Boot?
Or of La Traque Des Nazis?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
p***@gmail.com
2020-08-07 00:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Paul Dormer
In record shops, Ludwig van Beethoven is usually sorted under 'B'.
Mind you, I always sort Peter Maxwell Davies under 'M', even though
Maxwell was a given name. Everyone called him Max, anyway.
What about Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy? Osama bin Laden? Fidel
Castro Ruz? Mao Tse Tung? Mao Zedong? Jesus Christ? Joan of Arc?
Santa Claus? Kim Jong Un? Cecil Calvert, 2nd Baron Baltimore?
Queen Elizabeth II?
How do you file your Ace doubles? How about your DVD of Das Boot?
Or of La Traque Des Nazis?
I think we're looking for that hobgoblin of little minds, foolish
consistency (Emerson). A lot of things are special cases. People get
filed under their last name, unless that's not how people refer to
them. Mao gets under M, van Beethoven under B, etc. Not everything
is reducible to an algorithm.

pt
Gary McGath
2020-08-07 09:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
What about Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy? Osama bin Laden? Fidel
Castro Ruz? Mao Tse Tung? Mao Zedong? Jesus Christ? Joan of Arc?
Santa Claus? Kim Jong Un? Cecil Calvert, 2nd Baron Baltimore?
Queen Elizabeth II?
How do you file your Ace doubles? How about your DVD of Das Boot?
Or of La Traque Des Nazis?
I wrote a song titled "A Is A" and put it on my iPad as a Fourscore
file. Fourscore alphabetizes it under "I", apparently because it
considers "A" a definite article.

So as far as Fourscore is concerned, A isn't A. Ayn Rand would be
displeased.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 10:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
I wrote a song titled "A Is A" and put it on my iPad as a Fourscore
file. Fourscore alphabetizes it under "I", apparently because it
considers "A" a definite article.
iTunes does something similar. An album I have performed by The Wallace
Collection is sorted under 'W'
Gary McGath
2020-08-07 13:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Getting back to name fallacies: A Washington Post article says ICE has
been rejecting immigration applications unless every field is filled in,
including those that don't apply. If you don't have a middle name,
you're rejected.

Maybe you can fill in "(None)" for your middle name and then have to go
through life as Carlos None Mendez.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-trump-administration-imposes-yet-another-arbitrary-absurd-modification-to-the-immigration-system/2020/08/06/42de75ca-d811-11ea-930e-d88518c57dcc_story.html
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 16:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Maybe you can fill in "(None)" for your middle name and then have to go
through life as Carlos None Mendez.
I remember once seeing in one of those books of misprints from the press
a news item all in Spanish. I don't read Spanish but there was a name in
the item of the the British Prime Minister, rendered as Sir Alec Douglas
Hyphen Home.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 10:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
How do you file your Ace doubles? How about your DVD of Das Boot?
Or of La Traque Des Nazis?
I was specifically thinking of the ordering in iTunes, where I've set the
composer name for his works to "Maxwell Davies, Peter (1934-2016)". For
both Felix and Fanny Mendelssohn I've dropped the Bartholdy part.

The Chinese composer Tan Dun I've put under 'T'.

As to DVDs, I was surprised once going through the World cinema section
of a shop to find Der Golem under 'D' and La Dolce Vita under 'L', I'm
told that is convention for sorting non-English titles in English.
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-07 14:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Keith F. Lynch
How do you file your Ace doubles? How about your DVD of Das Boot?
Or of La Traque Des Nazis?
I was specifically thinking of the ordering in iTunes, where I've set the
composer name for his works to "Maxwell Davies, Peter (1934-2016)". For
both Felix and Fanny Mendelssohn I've dropped the Bartholdy part.
The Chinese composer Tan Dun I've put under 'T'.
As to DVDs, I was surprised once going through the World cinema section
of a shop to find Der Golem under 'D' and La Dolce Vita under 'L', I'm
told that is convention for sorting non-English titles in English.
Well, not in *our* house. Articles in any language go at the end ("Dolce Vita, La"; "Cid, El"; etc.) I hate when I'm looking things like this up in an index and they are filed under the article.

Ace Doubles are filed numerically, of course. it's the Belmont Doubles et al that are the PsITA.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 16:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Well, not in *our* house. Articles in any language go at the end
("Dolce Vita, La"; "Cid, El"; etc.) I hate when I'm looking things
like this up in an index and they are filed under the article.
I have a box set of CDs of the complete songs of Schubert. It comes with
a 422 page book of texts, with an index of titles. Das Abendrot comes
after Daphne am Bach and Die Wettenfahne comes before Diese Wolken in den
Höhen.

One of my favourite songs is the one known in English as The Erlking. I
looked under Der Erlkönig for it and couldn't find it. I was sure König
would be masculine, but I then searched under Das and Die.

Turns out in German the title is just Erlkönig.

Tim Merrigan
2020-08-05 18:41:13 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:43:39 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFantasy: Endora always misspoke Darrin's name. (She was
played by Agnes Moorehead, whose middle name was Robertson.)
She was deliberately tweaking him. She didn't approve of her daughter
having married a "mortal".
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Tim Merrigan
2020-08-05 18:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:43:39 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFantasy: Endora always misspoke Darrin's name. (She was
played by Agnes Moorehead, whose middle name was Robertson.)
She was deliberately tweaking him. She didn't approve of her daughter
having married a "mortal".
Which brings up a little bit of a peeve with me. Speaking from
personal experience, Witches are just as mortal as followers of any
other religion.

Tim Merrigan, agnostic Wiccan.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Kevrob
2020-08-05 19:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
Post by Tim Merrigan
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:43:39 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFantasy: Endora always misspoke Darrin's name. (She was
played by Agnes Moorehead, whose middle name was Robertson.)
She was deliberately tweaking him. She didn't approve of her daughter
having married a "mortal".
Which brings up a little bit of a peeve with me. Speaking from
personal experience, Witches are just as mortal as followers of any
other religion.
In-story "witches and warlocks" were extraordinarily long-lived.
Technically, they aren't immortal, but close enough for a TV
sitcom. I was already crushing on "older woman" Elizabeth Montgomery.
10 years, 10 centuries - what's the difference when you are
7 going on 15?
--
Kevin R
Scott Dorsey
2020-08-05 20:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Merrigan
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 23:43:39 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
Post by Keith F. Lynch
ObFantasy: Endora always misspoke Darrin's name. (She was
played by Agnes Moorehead, whose middle name was Robertson.)
She was deliberately tweaking him. She didn't approve of her daughter
having married a "mortal".
In much the way that Big Bird could never say Mr. Looper... err.. I mean
Hooper's name correctly.

Of course, that was in the days before Mr. Hooper was gunned down by the
Korean Mafia and his store taken over.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Paul Dormer
2020-08-04 11:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Robinson, Robison, Robeson and Robertson.
I get Dorma, which is a brand name for bedding in the UK.

I once turned up for a con and found they'd spelled my name on my badge
that way. Bizarrely, on the reverse of the badge was the programme items
I was on, and my name was correct there.

Then again, it would appear that my great grandfather spelled the name
Dormor.
Gary McGath
2020-08-04 13:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kevrob
Robinson, Robison, Robeson and Robertson.
I get Dorma, which is a brand name for bedding in the UK.
I once turned up for a con and found they'd spelled my name on my badge
that way. Bizarrely, on the reverse of the badge was the programme items
I was on, and my name was correct there.
Tell them "Non son Dorma!" to a certain Puccini tune.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Paul Dormer
2020-08-04 15:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Tell them "Non son Dorma!" to a certain Puccini tune.
One of my favourite arias.
Kevrob
2020-08-04 17:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Then again, it would appear that my great grandfather spelled the name
Dormor.
"One does not simply sleepwalk into Dormor!" - Snoremir

Dormor seems to be an actual surname.

Given the French meaning, I'm reminded of Croyd Crenson

https://wildcards.fandom.com/wiki/Sleeper

...and, of course, Wells

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleeper_Awakes
--
Kevin R
Paul Dormer
2020-08-05 09:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Given the French meaning, I'm reminded of Croyd Crenson
Indeed. And Paul comes from the Latin for small, my name translates as
Little Sleepyhead. As at my peak I was 1.90m tall, not so little. (I've
shrunk a couple of centimetres in old age.)

At school, my nickname was Dormouse (but nobody tried to stuff me into a
teapot). I use that name online in some places.
Bernard Peek
2020-08-06 10:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names
mispronounced. It infuriates me every time someone pronounces
my name "McGrath," though I try not to let it show.
Probably like my annoyance when companies mispell my last
name. ("Vanpelt" is the least of it... I've seen all kinds
of wacky stuff. Probably some of it was due to misprogramed
computers that blew bits all over the floor when they hit
a space in the middle of a last name.)
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?
Must be "Peanuts" fans.
Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
Then of course there's the question of where your surname falls in
alphabetic sorts. In the UK and the US under V, but in the Netherlands under
P. That caught some people out when searching for their name in the
Confiction membership list.

I used that once as an illustration of invalid assumptions can screw
systems. Data should appear where the user expects to find it so collation
sequences in reports should take into account the nationality of the
intended recipient.
--
Bernard Peek
***@shrdlu.com
Kevrob
2020-08-06 14:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Peek
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names
mispronounced. It infuriates me every time someone pronounces
my name "McGrath," though I try not to let it show.
Probably like my annoyance when companies mispell my last
name. ("Vanpelt" is the least of it... I've seen all kinds
of wacky stuff. Probably some of it was due to misprogramed
computers that blew bits all over the floor when they hit
a space in the middle of a last name.)
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?
Must be "Peanuts" fans.
Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
Then of course there's the question of where your surname falls in
alphabetic sorts. In the UK and the US under V, but in the Netherlands under
P. That caught some people out when searching for their name in the
Confiction membership list.
I used that once as an illustration of invalid assumptions can screw
systems. Data should appear where the user expects to find it so collation
sequences in reports should take into account the nationality of the
intended recipient.
Welcome back, Bernard!
--
Kevin R
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-06 16:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Peek
Then of course there's the question of where your surname falls in
alphabetic sorts. In the UK and the US under V, but in the Netherlands under
P. That caught some people out when searching for their name in the
Confiction membership list.
I used that once as an illustration of invalid assumptions can screw
systems. Data should appear where the user expects to find it so collation
sequences in reports should take into account the nationality of the
intended recipient.
When I went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic in 1992 (before the Academia Real changed the alphabetization of "ch" and "ll"), I was constantly being tripped up looking up "Chimelis" in the phone book, because it came after "Cz" rather than between "Cg" and "Ci". Even now, I have several Spanish dictionaries; one pre-dates the change, and the other post-dates it, so looking up words with "ch" or "ll" is always an adventure.

In 2014, the Academia Real eliminated "ch" and "ll" as separate letters, along with some other changes; see <https://www.latintimes.com/spanish-royal-academy-eliminates-characters-y-ch-and-ll-alphabet-and-changes-names-others-164688> for details.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-06 23:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
When I went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic in 1992
(before the Academia Real changed the alphabetization of "ch"
and "ll"), ...
Does the Academia Real have any authority on those islands?
They haven't been colonies of Spain for quite some time.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-07 05:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by ***@optonline.net
When I went to Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic in 1992
(before the Academia Real changed the alphabetization of "ch"
and "ll"), ...
Does the Academia Real have any authority on those islands?
They haven't been colonies of Spain for quite some time.
There is a consortium of academies from many countries that pretty much follow the lead of the Academia Real of Spain in an attempt to standardize things like spelling, alphabetization, and so on. (Or perhaps better expressed as the Academia Real makes its pronouncements after consulting with the other countries' academies.)

Wikipedia says, "The Royal Spanish Academy (Spanish: Real Academia Española, generally abbreviated as RAE) is Spain's official royal institution with a mission to ensure the stability of the Spanish language. It is based in Madrid, Spain, but is affiliated with national language academies in 22 other hispanophone nations through the Association of Academies of the Spanish Language."

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Tim Merrigan
2020-08-07 14:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Association of Academies of the Spanish Language
I'm amused it that's its actual name. Shouldn't it be: Asociación de
Academias de la Lengua Española.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Tim Merrigan
2020-08-06 19:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Peek
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names
mispronounced. It infuriates me every time someone pronounces
my name "McGrath," though I try not to let it show.
Probably like my annoyance when companies mispell my last
name. ("Vanpelt" is the least of it... I've seen all kinds
of wacky stuff. Probably some of it was due to misprogramed
computers that blew bits all over the floor when they hit
a space in the middle of a last name.)
Do they fail to capitalize the V in Van Pelt?
Must be "Peanuts" fans.
Having grown up in outside of Old Nieuw Amsterdam,
the Dutch "van" is not strange to my ear nor eye.
I always ask if it is separated by a space, or
capitalized, the way that families use it varies.
Then of course there's the question of where your surname falls in
alphabetic sorts. In the UK and the US under V, but in the Netherlands under
P. That caught some people out when searching for their name in the
Confiction membership list.
I used that once as an illustration of invalid assumptions can screw
systems. Data should appear where the user expects to find it so collation
sequences in reports should take into account the nationality of the
intended recipient.
It should be noted that in a lot of electronic sorts, Mr. Van Pelt's
name would be found under M, for Mike.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
eleeper@optonline.net
2020-08-04 07:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gary McGath
I can definitely relate to frustration at having names
mispronounced. It infuriates me every time someone pronounces
my name "McGrath," though I try not to let it show.
Probably like my annoyance when companies mispell my last
name. ("Vanpelt" is the least of it... I've seen all kinds
of wacky stuff. Probably some of it was due to misprogramed
computers that blew bits all over the floor when they hit
a space in the middle of a last name.)
See <https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Paul Dormer
2020-08-02 13:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@optonline.net
Many people said they gave up (e.g.) an hour in when it was clear
they would have to stay up until 4AM to hear all the results.
Indeed, by 00:45 my time, they had announced only two results and I was
much in need of sleep, which is when I switched off and went to bed.
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-02 19:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
What surprised me was the poor turnout. The video feed had a
viewer count at the top left. I started about an hour in, when
it was 600 odd. By the Best Novel it had barely tipped over 1000.
There were three feeds, and I think the viewer count was for the
feed you were watching.
Right. I occasionally jumped from one to another to see if there was
any text chat going on on any of them. All three had text chats (or
perhaps the same text chat), but their counts remained stubbornly at
zero. Maybe they were only shown to users who logged onto the text
chat? I didn't, since it appeared to only be open to those with
social network accounts.

Also, the actual members of the con had a fourth channel. And the
nominees had a fifth.

Also, probably few people watched in Europe, since the event ran
from midnight to 3:20 am in the UK, even later in mainland Europe.
Similarly in Africa, the Middle East, and central Asia.

Also, the Worldcon being earlier in the year than any other Worldcon
in 72 years may have caused people to miss it. I know fans who missed
the '98 Baltimore Worldcon because they waited until mid-August to
check on when it would be, only to find that it was already over.
(It ran August 5-9, the earliest in 50 years.)
Post by Scott Dorsey
I didn't vote for Ms. Ng for best related work, but I can understand
why it was put there. Even if you don't agree with her, you have to
give her credit for drama.
I remember when people who went on angry rants were warned, or kicked
out of, conventions, not rewarded for them. Not to mention the utter
vulgarity of denouncing the person the award was named for while
accepting the award. Tesla didn't denounce Edison while accepting
the Edison award; he refused the Edison award.

Anyhow she got the Hugo for "best related work," not for "best
dramatic presentation, short form."
Post by Scott Dorsey
I somewhat agree with her but I think she should learn the
difference between fascism and imperialism and also learn some of
Campbell's tradition of deliberately advocating ludicrous positions
in order to get people to think.
I, for one, deliberately seek out non-mainstream viewpoints, and I
encourage everyone to do the same. Far too many people are absolutely
certain that they are right about everything, and this has caused
great harm.

And I think it's better for people who hold mistaken opinions to
express them and be politely provided evidence that they are wrong,
rather than remaining silent in fear of being fired and denounced,
hence retaining their mistaken opinions for the rest of their lives.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-03 09:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Also, the Worldcon being earlier in the year than any other Worldcon
in 72 years may have caused people to miss it. I know fans who missed
the '98 Baltimore Worldcon because they waited until mid-August to
check on when it would be, only to find that it was already over.
(It ran August 5-9, the earliest in 50 years.)
I was European agent for Sasquan, held in August 2015. I received a
registration form and cheque from someone in the UK wanting to join in
July 2016.
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-04 23:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
I was European agent for Sasquan, held in August 2015. I received a
registration form and cheque from someone in the UK wanting to join
in July 2016.
I thought the mail (ObUK: the post) was slow here in the US!

When you deposited the check, did you warn the clueless fan that it
was too late to vote in site selection and in the Hugos? :-)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-05 09:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Paul Dormer
I was European agent for Sasquan, held in August 2015. I received a
registration form and cheque from someone in the UK wanting to join
in July 2016.
I thought the mail (ObUK: the post) was slow here in the US!
When you deposited the check, did you warn the clueless fan that it
was too late to vote in site selection and in the Hugos? :-)
A lot to unpack there.

The date on the check was July 2016, so not delayed in the post. Mail
and post are used interchangeably in the UK. After all, it's delivered
by the Royal Mail. And if you haven't seen the 1936 documentary The
Night Mail, search it out. Music by Benjamin Britten, verse by W.H Auden.
Here is the night mail crossing the border, Bringing the cheque and the
postal order, Letters for the rich, letters for the poor, The shop at the
corner, the girl next door.

I did not set up a Sasquan bank account. For the number of people who
pay by cheque these days, it didn't seem worth it. If someone did send
me a cheque I returned it and asked for one made out to me in person.
After the convention I made one big transfer with PayPal.

I did try and contact this person by e-mail - they'd given an address on
the form - but got no reply, so I posted the cheque back to them with a
covering letter explaining how Worldcons work.
Gary McGath
2020-08-05 16:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
The date on the check was July 2016, so not delayed in the post. Mail
and post are used interchangeably in the UK. After all, it's delivered
by the Royal Mail. And if you haven't seen the 1936 documentary The
Night Mail, search it out. Music by Benjamin Britten, verse by W.H Auden.
Here is the night mail crossing the border, Bringing the cheque and the
postal order, Letters for the rich, letters for the poor, The shop at the
corner, the girl next door.
That sounds unrelated to Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which is
definitely science fiction.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
The Magic Battery: A tale of magic and change in Reformation Germany
https://garymcgath.com/TMB
Paul Dormer
2020-08-05 17:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
That sounds unrelated to Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which is
definitely science fiction.
Indeed, but I think the term "night mail" for a train or other mode of
transport for carrying mail overnight had been in use long before Kipling
used it.
Scott Dorsey
2020-08-05 20:26:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McGath
Post by Paul Dormer
The date on the check was July 2016, so not delayed in the post. Mail
and post are used interchangeably in the UK. After all, it's delivered
by the Royal Mail. And if you haven't seen the 1936 documentary The
Night Mail, search it out. Music by Benjamin Britten, verse by W.H Auden.
Here is the night mail crossing the border, Bringing the cheque and the
postal order, Letters for the rich, letters for the poor, The shop at the
corner, the girl next door.
That sounds unrelated to Kipling's "With the Night Mail," which is
definitely science fiction.
It is in no way connected to Kipling's story, except in that they both involve
overnight mail delivery. Kipling was extrapolating the process that was used
at the turn of the century into the future, while the 1936 documentary was
showing how the actual future turned out. No dirigibles, sadly, but they did
sorting en route which is pretty impressive.

It is a great, great film, one of the best documentaries of all time.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Paul Dormer
2020-08-06 10:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
It is a great, great film, one of the best documentaries of all time.
Indeed. All the sorting staff on the train were real staff, apparently,
but the on-train sequences were mostly filmed in a studio.

I recently saw again the film Fires were Started, under it's other title
of I Was a Fireman, which I think makes it a longer cut. Another one
were real people playing themselves, this time, firemen in the Blitz.
Not sure if it counts as a documentary as it is a reconstruction acted
out.
Keith F. Lynch
2020-08-06 23:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
I did not set up a Sasquan bank account. For the number of people
who pay by cheque these days, it didn't seem worth it. If someone
did send me a cheque I returned it and asked for one made out to me
in person.
For most people, that request would be an enormous red flag.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2020-08-07 10:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Paul Dormer
I did not set up a Sasquan bank account. For the number of people
who pay by cheque these days, it didn't seem worth it. If someone
did send me a cheque I returned it and asked for one made out to me
in person.
For most people, that request would be an enormous red flag.
Most people in UK fandom who would be joining a Worldcon would know me
anyway.
Mike Van Pelt
2020-08-03 17:17:19 UTC
Permalink
... and also learn some of Campbell's tradition of deliberately
advocating ludicrous positions in order to get people to think.
Think? Think? Thinking is double-plus-ungood. Thinking
leads to ThoughtCrime. Report for reeducation immediately.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
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