Discussion:
Is it really a race to the bottom?
(too old to reply)
s***@yahoo.com
2006-04-13 20:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

I have an idea for a science fiction project. What is your take on the
current marketplace?

I recently saw a wonderful DVD by a filmmaker who was encouraging
people to copy it!

This was a feature film that could be in theaters, it was that good,
yet it wasn't.

Is that what you need to do to get started, as a writer and creative
person.

Giving your work away? How does a person benefit from this?

Is giving your work away for free simply a way to make a name for
yourself, get known and then you charge the big buck on your next
writing projects?

Is the marketplace that bad?

Scott Drake
Wilson Heydt
2006-04-13 21:48:10 UTC
Permalink
These are good questions to ask in rec.arts.sf.composition, though
you may not like the answers.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Greetings,
I have an idea for a science fiction project. What is your take on the
current marketplace?
If what you have is a yen to do the project, don't. If you simply
*must* do the the project, then finish it first and look for a way
to get it in front of people second.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I recently saw a wonderful DVD by a filmmaker who was encouraging
people to copy it!
This was a feature film that could be in theaters, it was that good,
yet it wasn't.
Is that what you need to do to get started, as a writer and creative
person.
To start as a writer, you need to apply your fundament to a chair
and write. If you're not a 'creative person' I don't think there is
any way to start.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Giving your work away? How does a person benefit from this?
Don't give it away. Write it, research markets, send it out, keep
sending it out until someone buys it. While your first work is out
there looking for a market, be writing the second, third, fourth,
etc. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Is giving your work away for free simply a way to make a name for
yourself, get known and then you charge the big buck on your next
writing projects?
How many 'beg names' can you think of that started by giving their
work away? None, huh? Should tell you something.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Is the marketplace that bad?
It's a buyers market. It has been claimed that there is a clay
tablet on which is written in cuneiform: surely the end of the world
is at hand. Children no longer obey their parents and *everyone*
wants to write a book.

--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA

My dime, my opinions.
Dorothy J Heydt
2006-04-13 22:00:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilson Heydt
It's a buyers market. It has been claimed that there is a clay
tablet on which is written in cuneiform: surely the end of the world
is at hand. Children no longer obey their parents and *everyone*
wants to write a book.
Actually, it's not that old by a millennium or two. We
researched it once and tracked it down to an oration by Cicero.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
k***@checkmysig.com
2006-04-14 22:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Wilson Heydt
It's a buyers market. It has been claimed that there is a clay
tablet on which is written in cuneiform: surely the end of the world
is at hand. Children no longer obey their parents and *everyone*
wants to write a book.
Actually, it's not that old by a millennium or two. We
researched it once and tracked it down to an oration by Cicero.
Cicero, ya gotta love him. Admittedly what I know of him is from the book
"Pillar of Iron" by Taylor Caldwell, but from that, truly an amazing
individual. And one who peeved quite a bit.
--
kettir at |The summer sun is fading as the year grows old,
softhome |and darker days are drawing near; the winter wind
dot net |will be much colder now you’re not here. -Jeff Wayne-
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2006-04-13 22:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wilson Heydt
These are good questions to ask in rec.arts.sf.composition, though
you may not like the answers.
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Greetings,
I have an idea for a science fiction project. What is your take on the
current marketplace?
If what you have is a yen to do the project, don't. If you simply
*must* do the the project, then finish it first and look for a way
to get it in front of people second.
Yes, this is almost good advice. (I think if he has a yen to do the project -
wants to, thinks it would be fun, might be entertaining - why not? It's a
cheap way to pass the time. If he doesn't want to do it unless we think he
could sell a million copies, he shouldn't do it.)
Post by Wilson Heydt
Post by s***@yahoo.com
I recently saw a wonderful DVD by a filmmaker who was encouraging
people to copy it!
This was a feature film that could be in theaters, it was that good,
yet it wasn't.
Is that what you need to do to get started, as a writer and creative
person.
To start as a writer, you need to apply your fundament to a chair
and write. If you're not a 'creative person' I don't think there is
any way to start.
What you said. Also, once he's been writing a bit, Clarion.
Post by Wilson Heydt
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Giving your work away? How does a person benefit from this?
Ask Linus Torvalds.
Post by Wilson Heydt
Don't give it away. Write it, research markets, send it out, keep
sending it out until someone buys it. While your first work is out
there looking for a market, be writing the second, third, fourth,
etc. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Yes. (There are people who've made piles of money by self-publishing, but
they're not actually usually writers of acknowledged fiction, and they have
platforms to market from.)
Post by Wilson Heydt
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Is giving your work away for free simply a way to make a name for
yourself, get known and then you charge the big buck on your next
writing projects?
How many 'beg names' can you think of that started by giving their
work away? None, huh? Should tell you something.
Uh, Cory Doctorow? Ana Marie Cox? There are people who've made the transition
from the blog world to the get-paid-by-a-publisher-for-your-novel world. Cory
continues to give it away free.

-- Alan
mike weber
2006-04-14 08:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
Yes. (There are people who've made piles of money by self-publishing, but
they're not actually usually writers of acknowledged fiction, and they have
platforms to market from.)
Roddy Doyle and Joan Jett come to mind
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-04-14 18:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
Yes. (There are people who've made piles of money by self-publishing,
but they're not actually usually writers of acknowledged fiction, and
they have platforms to market from.)
Roddy Doyle and Joan Jett come to mind
A fellow named Richard Nanes, who appears to have extremely deep pockets,
has self-published recordings of his music, which is terrible drivel.
There was a previous example of this sort of thing, and a personage better
known as a poet: Rod McKuen.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Nancy Lebovitz
2006-04-14 17:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
Post by Wilson Heydt
How many 'beg names' can you think of that started by giving their
work away? None, huh? Should tell you something.
Uh, Cory Doctorow? Ana Marie Cox? There are people who've made the transition
from the blog world to the get-paid-by-a-publisher-for-your-novel world. Cory
continues to give it away free.
And John Scalzi (_Old Man's War_ and _Ghost Brigades_)--not a big name,
but a solid sf writer who got started by writing a novel for fun and
putting the whole thing on his website.

It's probably relevent that he was already a pretty popular blogger when
he did it.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov

My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
David Friedman
2006-04-14 18:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nancy Lebovitz
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
Post by Wilson Heydt
How many 'beg names' can you think of that started by giving their
work away? None, huh? Should tell you something.
Uh, Cory Doctorow? Ana Marie Cox? There are people who've made the transition
from the blog world to the get-paid-by-a-publisher-for-your-novel world.
Cory
continues to give it away free.
And John Scalzi (_Old Man's War_ and _Ghost Brigades_)--not a big name,
but a solid sf writer who got started by writing a novel for fun and
putting the whole thing on his website.
It's probably relevent that he was already a pretty popular blogger when
he did it.
For a different version of "give it away free and then become a big
name," Steven D. Levitt, coauthor of _Freakanomics_. He established his
reputation as an academic, and academics routinely give their work away
free in the form of journal articles for which they are not paid. Very
occasionally, they can then use that reputation to help sell a
successful book.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Steve Glover
2006-04-18 20:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
He established his
reputation as an academic, and academics routinely give their work away
free in the form of journal articles for which they are not paid.
Quite. And sometimes for values of not paid that entail paying page
charges.

But if you want a refereed publication to stick on your CV....

Steve
--
Steve Glover, Fell Services Ltd.
Home: steve at fell-services dot net, 0131 551 3835
Away: steve.glover at ukonline dor co dot uk, 07961 446 902
Kevin J. Maroney
2006-04-15 03:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nancy Lebovitz
And John Scalzi (_Old Man's War_ and _Ghost Brigades_)--not a big name,
but a solid sf writer who got started by writing a novel for fun and
putting the whole thing on his website.
He's been nominated for both the Best Novel Hugo and the John W.
Campbell Award for the Best New Writer in Science Fiction Not a Hugotm
on the basis of that book he gave away. And one of the nominations for
Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form, was given away free to all
attendees of last year's WorldCon.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | ***@panix.com | www.maroney.org
Games are my entire waking life.
Nancy Lebovitz
2006-04-15 14:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
Post by Nancy Lebovitz
And John Scalzi (_Old Man's War_ and _Ghost Brigades_)--not a big name,
but a solid sf writer who got started by writing a novel for fun and
putting the whole thing on his website.
He's been nominated for both the Best Novel Hugo and the John W.
Campbell Award for the Best New Writer in Science Fiction Not a Hugotm
on the basis of that book he gave away. And one of the nominations for
Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form, was given away free to all
attendees of last year's WorldCon.
OK, a bigger name than I realized.
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov

My two favorite colors are "Oooooh" and "SHINY!".
Keith F. Lynch
2006-04-15 17:16:11 UTC
Permalink
And one of the nominations for Best Dramatic Presentation, Short
Form, was given away free to all attendees of last year's WorldCon.
I'm surprised that's eligible. I would say it wasn't "publicly
presented," since it was available *only* to attendees of last
year's WorldCon.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2006-04-19 15:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
And one of the nominations for
Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form, was given away free to all
attendees of last year's WorldCon.
Two, actually.
Kevin Standlee
2006-05-07 23:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
And one of the nominations for
Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form, was given away free to all
attendees of last year's WorldCon.
Two, actually.
That's right, and you can now download the "Prix Victor Hugo" speech
(framing sequence for the Hugo Award ceremony), which is a 2006 Hugo
Award nominee, from <http://www.interaction.worldcon.org.uk/hugo.htm>.
(Warning: it's a pretty large file.)

The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award, "Lucas
Back in Anger," has a website at
<http://www.soren.demon.co.uk/lbia/Introduction.html>, but cannot be
downloaded in its entirity for copyright reasons (explained on the site).
--
----
Kevin Standlee
http://kevin-standlee.livejournal.com/
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-08 03:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Paul Dormer
2006-05-08 10:43:00 UTC
Permalink
*Date:* 7 May 2006 23:19:44 -0400
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
The rules say nothing about it being generally available, only that it
was publicly presented in the preceding calendar year. Otherwise, no
stage presentations at all would be eligible, which I don't think is the
intent.

Indeed, it occurs to me that before the era of the VCR, all dramatic
presentation nominees would not be generally available.
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-05-08 14:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
*Date:* 7 May 2006 23:19:44 -0400
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
The rules say nothing about it being generally available, only that it
was publicly presented in the preceding calendar year. Otherwise, no
stage presentations at all would be eligible, which I don't think is the
intent.
Indeed, it occurs to me that before the era of the VCR, all dramatic
presentation nominees would not be generally available.
Except for those films which might have still been playing at nabes the
following year, which still wouldn't have been all that significant.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Paul Dormer
2006-05-08 14:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Paul Dormer
*Date:* 7 May 2006 23:19:44 -0400
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity
for
Post by Kevin Standlee
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
The rules say nothing about it being generally available, only that
it was publicly presented in the preceding calendar year.
Otherwise, no stage presentations at all would be eligible, which I
don't think is the intent.
Indeed, it occurs to me that before the era of the VCR, all
dramatic presentation nominees would not be generally available.
Except for those films which might have still been playing at nabes
the following year, which still wouldn't have been all that
significant.
Nabes? I'm guessing an abbreviation of "neighbourhood cinema".

Just checked the Odeon cinema site in the UK for all films showing, and
of this year's Hugo nominees, only Harry Potter and Narnia are still
playing.
Ben Yalow
2006-05-08 17:06:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
Because the voters, and the administrators, felt it met the requirements
for the category:

3.3.7: Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form. Any television program or
other production, with a complete running time of 90 minutes or less, in
any medium of dramatized science fiction, fantasy or related subjects that
has been publicly presented for the first time in its present dramatic
form during the previous calendar year.

It was (a) a production, (b) ran less than 90 minutes, (c) was a related
subject, and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.

Seems right to me.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
David Dyer-Bennet
2006-05-08 18:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
Because the voters, and the administrators, felt it met the requirements
3.3.7: Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form. Any television program or
other production, with a complete running time of 90 minutes or less, in
any medium of dramatized science fiction, fantasy or related subjects that
has been publicly presented for the first time in its present dramatic
form during the previous calendar year.
It was (a) a production, (b) ran less than 90 minutes, (c) was a related
subject, and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
Seems right to me.
Historically, "general available" means something rather different for
books than it does for movies (pre-VCR especially) and live
productions. Since live productions have clearly always been
eligible, presumably the meaning of "generally available" must be
specific to the category.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-***@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
Ben Yalow
2006-05-08 22:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
Because the voters, and the administrators, felt it met the requirements
3.3.7: Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form. Any television program or
other production, with a complete running time of 90 minutes or less, in
any medium of dramatized science fiction, fantasy or related subjects that
has been publicly presented for the first time in its present dramatic
form during the previous calendar year.
It was (a) a production, (b) ran less than 90 minutes, (c) was a related
subject, and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
Seems right to me.
Historically, "general available" means something rather different for
books than it does for movies (pre-VCR especially) and live
productions. Since live productions have clearly always been
eligible, presumably the meaning of "generally available" must be
specific to the category.
I wish I understood why people keep using the term "generally available"
when discussing eligibility in BDP-Short (which is where this work is
placed), or BDP-Long, which has the same rules as BDP-Short, except that
it refers to movies, and the work runs longer than 90 minutes.

"Generally available" is the term used in Fanzine and Semiprozine. It's
not used in BDP, which, as quoted above, refers to "publicly presented".
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
--
Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
David Dyer-Bennet
2006-05-08 23:03:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
Because the voters, and the administrators, felt it met the requirements
3.3.7: Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form. Any television program or
other production, with a complete running time of 90 minutes or less, in
any medium of dramatized science fiction, fantasy or related subjects that
has been publicly presented for the first time in its present dramatic
form during the previous calendar year.
It was (a) a production, (b) ran less than 90 minutes, (c) was a related
subject, and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
Seems right to me.
Historically, "general available" means something rather different for
books than it does for movies (pre-VCR especially) and live
productions. Since live productions have clearly always been
eligible, presumably the meaning of "generally available" must be
specific to the category.
I wish I understood why people keep using the term "generally available"
when discussing eligibility in BDP-Short (which is where this work is
placed), or BDP-Long, which has the same rules as BDP-Short, except that
it refers to movies, and the work runs longer than 90 minutes.
"Generally available" is the term used in Fanzine and Semiprozine. It's
not used in BDP, which, as quoted above, refers to "publicly presented".
Oops! Well, in *my* case it's because I just picked up what others
were saying, and didn't check the actual wording of the rules.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-***@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
David G. Bell
2006-05-09 08:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
Because the voters, and the administrators, felt it met the requirements
3.3.7: Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form. Any television program
or
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
other production, with a complete running time of 90 minutes or less, in
any medium of dramatized science fiction, fantasy or related subjects that
has been publicly presented for the first time in its present dramatic
form during the previous calendar year.
It was (a) a production, (b) ran less than 90 minutes, (c) was a related
subject, and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
Seems right to me.
Historically, "general available" means something rather different for
books than it does for movies (pre-VCR especially) and live
productions. Since live productions have clearly always been
eligible, presumably the meaning of "generally available" must be
specific to the category.
I wish I understood why people keep using the term "generally available"
when discussing eligibility in BDP-Short (which is where this work is
placed), or BDP-Long, which has the same rules as BDP-Short, except that
it refers to movies, and the work runs longer than 90 minutes.
"Generally available" is the term used in Fanzine and Semiprozine. It's
not used in BDP, which, as quoted above, refers to "publicly presented".
Oops! Well, in *my* case it's because I just picked up what others
were saying, and didn't check the actual wording of the rules.
Isn't there a general rule on eligibility which uses the concept? So
things like a premiere or a preview showing needn't set the eligibility
date? I think it's meant more for books but...
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
Ben Yalow
2006-05-09 17:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David G. Bell
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevin Standlee
The other presentation at Interaction nominated for a Hugo Award,
"Lucas Back in Anger," ... cannot be downloaded in its entirity for
copyright reasons ...
How can it be a valid nominee if it's not generally available?
Because the voters, and the administrators, felt it met the requirements
3.3.7: Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form. Any television program
or
Post by Ben Yalow
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
other production, with a complete running time of 90 minutes or less, in
any medium of dramatized science fiction, fantasy or related subjects that
has been publicly presented for the first time in its present dramatic
form during the previous calendar year.
It was (a) a production, (b) ran less than 90 minutes, (c) was a related
subject, and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
Seems right to me.
Historically, "general available" means something rather different for
books than it does for movies (pre-VCR especially) and live
productions. Since live productions have clearly always been
eligible, presumably the meaning of "generally available" must be
specific to the category.
I wish I understood why people keep using the term "generally available"
when discussing eligibility in BDP-Short (which is where this work is
placed), or BDP-Long, which has the same rules as BDP-Short, except that
it refers to movies, and the work runs longer than 90 minutes.
"Generally available" is the term used in Fanzine and Semiprozine. It's
not used in BDP, which, as quoted above, refers to "publicly presented".
Oops! Well, in *my* case it's because I just picked up what others
were saying, and didn't check the actual wording of the rules.
Isn't there a general rule on eligibility which uses the concept? So
things like a premiere or a preview showing needn't set the eligibility
date? I think it's meant more for books but...
The rules on eligibility are pretty straightforward -- but there are lots
of picky details. Mostly, they're irrelevant, but sometimes they become
relevant.

<Warning -- this may get long,>

The basic rule is set out in 3.2.1

Unless otherwise specified, Hugo Awards are given for work in the field of
science fiction or fantasy appearing for the first time during the
previous calendar year.

There one giant exception, which, to the best of my knowledge, has never
been invoked:

3.2.2: A work originally appearing in a language other than English shall
also be eligible for the year in which it is first issued in English
translation.

In addition, there are two ways that the Business Meeting can extend
eligibility. The original method, which still applies, is covered in
3.4:

Extended Eligibility. In the event that a potential Hugo Award nominee
receives extremely limited distribution in the year of its first
publication or presentation, its eligibility may be extended for an
additional year by a three fourths (3/4) vote of the intervening Business
Meeting of WSFS.

For a long time, this was the only method available. Once there began to
be significant numbers of Hugo-worthy works appearing outside the US,
people began to use a 3.4 extension broadly, with motions to extend
eligibility to all non-US works for a year based on limited distribution.
But people felt uncomfortable about that -- the rule had been put in to
deal with something like a Superman movie premiering in Australia, and so
starting the clock one year too soon. It seemed stretching it to
accomodate all the books published in the UK, especially when there are
more than enough UK members to put a book on the ballot if they chose.
And several thousand hardcovers seems hard to justify as "extremely
limited distribution".

So a new section was added:

3.2.3: The Business Meeting may by a 3/4 vote provide that works
originally published outside the United States of America and first
published in the United States of America in the current year shall also
be eligible for Hugo Awards given in the following year.

That doesn't force the Business Meeting to decide that the UK is
"extremely limited distribution", but still allows the meeting to
recognize that most of the nominators are American, and gives non-US books
time to be seen by the nominators. And that motion has been the one
adopted for the last several years, except this past year, since the
Business Meeting felt that since the majority of nominators were
Interaction members, rather than LA members (as of Jan, there were more
members of Interaction than there were of LA, and all members of both are
eligible to nominate), that it was unnecessary to deal with waiting for
stuff to appear in the US. And, looking at what was nominated, I think
the Business Meeting was correct in that decision.

There are a bunch of other general principles:

3.2.5: Publication date, or cover date in the case of a dated periodical,
takes precedence over copyright date.

This deals mostly with printed works, and defined when a work "appears".

3.2.6: Works appearing in a series are eligible as individual works, but
the series as a whole is not eligible. However, a work appearing in a
number of parts shall be eligible for the year of the final part.

This was originally designed mainly for novels serialized in magazines,
and to change the old rule that let a series like "Twilight Zone" get
nominated in BDP to one requiring that a specific episode be nominated --
which resulted in an all-Star Trek (5 different episodes) ballot a few
decades ago.

3.2.7: In the written fiction categories, an author may withdraw a
version of a work from consideration if the author feels that the version
is not representative of what that author wrote.

This is pretty obvious.


And, a final catchall to prevent double dipping, or game playing to pick a
better year:

3.2.4: A work shall not be eligible if in a prior year it received
sufficient nominations to appear on the final award ballot.


In a number of categories, there are additional clarifications of what is
meant by the "appearing" used in 3.2.1. Some categories, like the four
written fiction ones, don't have any additions.

Best Related Book, not surprisingly, requires "appearing for the first
time in book form during the previous calendar year".

BDP-Long and BDP-Short, as I mentioned before, say "publicly presented for
the first time in its present dramatic form...".

Best Semiprozine and Best Fanzine require a "generally available
non-professional publication" which put out at least four issues, of which
one appeared in the previous year.

Best Fanwriter requires publication in semiprozines, fanzines, or "in
generally available electronic media".

Best Fanartist requires work appearing in publication in semiprozines or
fanzines, or "through other public display".


So there is a general rule -- appearance starts the clock. Certain
categories require certain kinds of appearances, but that doesn't alter
the general rule. And the Business Meeting can fix things if the clock
seems to be triggered too early (a film premiere, as was suggested
earlier), so long as somebody notices, and brings it to the Business
Meeting's attention. Sometimes that doesn't happen -- Tim Powers lost a
likely Hugo nomination for _Declare_, which had appeared in a small press
edition that triggered his eligibility, and which nobody noticed and
brought up to the Business Meeting -- so the next year, when the work was
out from a major publisher, and got lots of nominations, it wasn't
eligible, which would have been fixed if somebody had brought up the
motion at the Business Meeting.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.
Post by David G. Bell
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
Seth Breidbart
2006-05-09 22:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David G. Bell
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Post by Ben Yalow
"Generally available" is the term used in Fanzine and Semiprozine. It's
not used in BDP, which, as quoted above, refers to "publicly presented".
Oops! Well, in *my* case it's because I just picked up what others
were saying, and didn't check the actual wording of the rules.
Isn't there a general rule on eligibility which uses the concept? So
things like a premiere or a preview showing needn't set the eligibility
date? I think it's meant more for books but...
A premiere or preview showing is often not open to the public, so it
doesn't count.

(There's also the "limited distribution" extension, if the Business
Meeting so chooses.)

Seth
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-09 00:46:59 UTC
Permalink
... and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
I for one don't consider a presentation at a Worldcon to be public.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Ben Yalow
2006-05-09 03:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
... and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
I for one don't consider a presentation at a Worldcon to be public.
The voters, and the administrators, disagree with your interpretation.
The Worldcon is open to anyone who wishes to join -- it doesn't restrict
itself in terms of who can buy memberships, in general.


And precedent favors their interpretation, as well. Note that, in 1976, a
slide show that was only shown at a few regional conventions (The Capture,
by Phil Foglio and Bob Asprin) was nominated. Yes -- it lost to _A Boy
and His Dog_ -- but it was nominated. And that section of the
Constitution hasn't been made more restrictive since then.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Ben
--
Ben Yalow ***@panix.com
Not speaking for anybody
Wilson Heydt
2006-05-09 04:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
... and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
I for one don't consider a presentation at a Worldcon to be public.
Why not?

--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA

My dime, my opinions.
Paul Dormer
2006-05-09 09:58:00 UTC
Permalink
*Date:* 8 May 2006 20:46:59 -0400
... and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
I for one don't consider a presentation at a Worldcon to be public.
Well, you have to pay to join the convention, but you usually have to
pay to see most theatrical presentations also.

For the record, I've spent more on a single opera ticket than I did on
membership for Interaction.

Interesting thought. There are some operas that are SF, and many are
definitely fantasy. Would, say, the new Royal Opera House production of
Götterdämmerung be eligible for the Hugo next year? (I haven't seen it,
and am not thinking of nominating it. This is purely hypothetical.)

I'm sure there would have been no problem with the new King Kong being
on this year's ballot, and I'm sure it was nominated.
Kevin Standlee
2006-05-10 06:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
... and (d) was publicly presented in 2005.
I for one don't consider a presentation at a Worldcon to be public.
Why not? Such a work is possibly seen by a larger percentage of the
eligible electorate than any given movie or television show. Between
1,000 and 2,000 eligible nominators saw _LBIA_ and _Prix Victor Hugo_.

And besides that, there's the _vox populi_ argument that enough of the
nominators seemed to think the work was sufficiently public to be
considered eligible.

Just because any particular member was not able to see a work does not
make the work ineligible. If that were the case, then the 1994 Hugo
Award winner for Best Original Artwork would have been disqualified.
(It was the "Space Fantasy" stamps published by the US Postal Service,
and a significant number of people -- namely most of the non-US members
-- had never seen them.)
--
----
Kevin Standlee
http://kevin-standlee.livejournal.com/
Sea Wasp
2006-04-13 22:40:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
Giving your work away? How does a person benefit from this?
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are. I give away copies of my book all the time. Baen
puts all their stuff up for free. We make money this way.

Whether it would work on a DVD or similar project I don't know.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Keith F. Lynch
2006-04-14 02:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Dorothy J Heydt
2006-04-14 04:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-04-14 07:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
A newcomer or infrequent poster/lurker might not. Hell, *I* don't.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Sea Wasp
2006-04-14 12:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
A newcomer or infrequent poster/lurker might not. Hell, *I* don't.
This proves my point, actually. I've plugged my books whenever it was
reasonably on-topic, my real name has been mentioned many times in
those (and other) threads, I've posted WITH my real name mentioned
numbers of times, and yet an undoubted regular and long-time resident
here doesn't know who I am (Ryk E. Spoor) in the "real world".

The situation is worse for a true new writer who doesn't belong to
such a wide-flung community, but even pretty darn successful writers
like Eric Flint or Vernor Vinge, while well-known in fandom, don't
have nearly anything like household-name exposure. They're still
missing thousands upon thousands of sales which would happen if only
people knew who they were and what they wrote.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-04-14 18:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
A newcomer or infrequent poster/lurker might not. Hell, *I* don't.
This proves my point, actually. I've plugged my books whenever it
was reasonably on-topic, my real name has been mentioned many times in
those (and other) threads, I've posted WITH my real name mentioned
numbers of times, and yet an undoubted regular and long-time resident
here doesn't know who I am (Ryk E. Spoor) in the "real world".
The situation is worse for a true new writer who doesn't belong to
such a wide-flung community, but even pretty darn successful writers
like Eric Flint or Vernor Vinge, while well-known in fandom, don't have
nearly anything like household-name exposure. They're still missing
thousands upon thousands of sales which would happen if only people knew
who they were and what they wrote.
I didn't mean to come off as critical in any way, of course. I don't
follow all the threads here, so haven't seen your name before. And I was
certainly not objecting to your using "Sea Wasp" to post under, either.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Sea Wasp
2006-04-14 22:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I didn't mean to come off as critical in any way, of course.
I didn't take it that way, either; just as a statement of fact, which
was actually quite convenient. I've known your online persona for many
years, and you've known mine, and yet -- despite my making a fair
point to "spread the word" -- my real name has never registered with you.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-04-14 23:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I didn't mean to come off as critical in any way, of course.
I didn't take it that way, either; just as a statement of fact,
which was actually quite convenient. I've known your online persona for
many years, and you've known mine, and yet -- despite my making a fair
point to "spread the word" -- my real name has never registered with you.
Thanks, I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on this.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Sea Wasp
2006-04-14 12:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
Damn! They're on to me!
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
David Friedman
2006-04-14 17:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
Damn! They're on to me!
Every stinging tentacle. And keeping our distance.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of _Harald_, a fantasy without magic.
Published by Baen, in bookstores now
Keith F. Lynch
2006-04-15 18:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one
knows who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we all
know who *he* is.
Damn! They're on to me!
Yes, we all know that "Sea Wasp" is really J.K. Rowling, using an
alias to desperately try to hide from her many obsessive fans.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Wim Lewis
2006-05-07 06:03:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Damn! They're on to me!
Yes, we all know that "Sea Wasp" is really J.K. Rowling, using an
alias to desperately try to hide from her many obsessive fans.
Ahhh, that explains the farting dinosaurs in the latest Harry Potter novel.
--
Wim Lewis <***@hhhh.org>, Seattle, WA, USA. PGP keyID 27F772C1
Sea Wasp
2006-05-08 02:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wim Lewis
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Damn! They're on to me!
Yes, we all know that "Sea Wasp" is really J.K. Rowling, using an
alias to desperately try to hide from her many obsessive fans.
If only it were true. Alas, my bank account gives the lie to that
one. Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
Post by Wim Lewis
Ahhh, that explains the farting dinosaurs in the latest Harry Potter novel.
PLAGIARISM! When can I sue?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-08 02:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?

(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Sea Wasp
2006-05-08 03:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
Blast it, now I have to stop posting as a balding Brit! Stop blowing
my cover!
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Marilee J. Layman
2006-05-08 23:06:38 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 08 May 2006 03:16:29 GMT, Sea Wasp
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
Blast it, now I have to stop posting as a balding Brit! Stop blowing
my cover!
He's not balding. He shaves. I wonder if I can find a picture of him
before he shaved....

Here you go:

Loading Image...

(That's the side of Feorag's head on the right.)
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/
Sea Wasp
2006-05-08 23:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marilee J. Layman
On Mon, 08 May 2006 03:16:29 GMT, Sea Wasp
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
Blast it, now I have to stop posting as a balding Brit! Stop blowing
my cover!
He's not balding. He shaves. I wonder if I can find a picture of him
before he shaved....
http://www.craphound.com/images/torcon03/torcon03-Images/24.jpg
(That's the side of Feorag's head on the right.)
I dunno, despite the wealth of curliness it appears to me that the
hairline is in as much full retreat as mine, or nearly so. It just has
the ability to throw up a screen to confuse you.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-09 00:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
I dunno, despite the wealth of curliness it appears to me that the
hairline is in as much full retreat as mine, or nearly so. It just
has the ability to throw up a screen to confuse you.
Is there a photo of him wearing his plush Cthulhu on his head online?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Marilee J. Layman
2006-05-10 00:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
I dunno, despite the wealth of curliness it appears to me that the
hairline is in as much full retreat as mine, or nearly so. It just
has the ability to throw up a screen to confuse you.
Is there a photo of him wearing his plush Cthulhu on his head online?
I think the Cthulhu is Feorag's and on her site, let's see...

http://www.antipope.org/feorag/fluffcthulhu/eastercon2005/eastercon2005-Pages/Image10.html

If you back up to the fluffcthulhu directory, you can see the Cthulhu
on other author & editor heads.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/
Max
2006-05-10 13:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marilee J. Layman
He's not balding. He shaves. I wonder if I can find a picture of him
before he shaved....
At Easter he was back to a full head of hair.

Max
Marilee J. Layman
2006-05-10 22:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Max
Post by Marilee J. Layman
He's not balding. He shaves. I wonder if I can find a picture of him
before he shaved....
At Easter he was back to a full head of hair.
That's pretty fast!
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/
Paul Dormer
2006-05-11 10:33:00 UTC
Permalink
*Date:* Wed, 10 May 2006 18:25:36 -0400
Post by Max
Post by Marilee J. Layman
He's not balding. He shaves. I wonder if I can find a picture of
him
Post by Marilee J. Layman
before he shaved....
At Easter he was back to a full head of hair.
That's pretty fast!
A friend of mine claims to have grown a beard whilst on holiday. He
came back into his office and one of the secretaries said, "You grew
that in two weeks? You must be ever so virile. You look just like
Bluto."

He said that he'd never been built up and then put down so fast.
Charlie Stross
2006-05-11 19:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
Post by Max
Post by Marilee J. Layman
He's not balding. He shaves. I wonder if I can find a picture of him
before he shaved....
At Easter he was back to a full head of hair.
Slight overstatement there, I think; it's back, but it's not as bushy
as it used to be. I'm currently vacilating over whether to grow it out
for the additional year it'll take to resume normal length, or to start
shaving it off again.


-- Charlie
Karen Lofstrom
2006-05-12 00:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
Slight overstatement there, I think; it's back, but it's not as bushy
as it used to be. I'm currently vacilating over whether to grow it out
for the additional year it'll take to resume normal length, or to start
shaving it off again.
Well, you could split the difference: shave half your scalp, grow hair on
the other half. The overall effect would depend on whether the dividing
line ran from nose to nape, or ear to ear.

Wait ... the tonsure look! Shave just the TOP. Umpteen out of frimgozzle
popes agree, classic tonsure looks good on me!
--
Karen Lofstrom ***@lava.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
CLIP-ON NOSE RINGS ARE HERE!
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-13 20:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Well, you could split the difference: shave half your scalp, grow
hair on the other half.
That's sort of what I do. Kind of like a Mohawk, only in reverse.
And I don't actually have to shave -- it grows in that pattern. It's
a style that's been fashionable among monks, emperors, composers,
scientists, senators, and many others, for centuries.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
j***@comcast.net
2006-05-08 14:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
Charlie, did you choose an American setting with an eye to bumping up
sales in the larger market?

Johan Larson
Charlie Stross
2006-05-11 19:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
Post by j***@comcast.net
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
Charlie, did you choose an American setting with an eye to bumping up
sales in the larger market?
Guilty as charged.

(It appears to have backfired, insofar as no UK publisher has taken the
series. So I'm trying the other boot, by seeing if the US market will go
for a Scottish cop yarn :)


-- Charlie
Dan Goodman
2006-05-12 00:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
If I recall correctly, it's not quite _our_ world's US. So it could
easily have gotten a few Britishisms not found in our US. Conversely,
it might not have picked up such things as the slang meanings of
raspberry and bread.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://community.livejournal.com/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Charlie Stross
2006-05-12 09:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Keith F. Lynch
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
If I recall correctly, it's not quite _our_ world's US. So it could
easily have gotten a few Britishisms not found in our US. Conversely,
it might not have picked up such things as the slang meanings of
raspberry and bread.
YeahBut, the point of departure for the alt-hist element takes place in
early 2002. Hmm.

(One of the scenes I was *so* looking forward to was writing the bit in
book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over his secret
service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas party, then makes a
clean get-away -- just to make it *clear* that this was alt-hist.
Unfortunately the scene didn't fit, so I ended up with something a lot
lower-key. Hmm. How do you think things would look today if Rummy and W
had gone for "Operation Iranian Freedom" in early 2003, instead of
whacking on the cheap pinata instead?)


-- Charlie
j***@comcast.net
2006-05-12 14:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
YeahBut, the point of departure for the alt-hist element takes place in
early 2002. Hmm.
(One of the scenes I was *so* looking forward to was writing the bit in
book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over his secret
service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas party, then makes a
clean get-away -- just to make it *clear* that this was alt-hist.
Unfortunately the scene didn't fit, so I ended up with something a lot
lower-key.
Would you tell us how this assassin was supposed to get away with it?
Best I can figure, since the president often makes public appearances,
killing him wouldn't in the end be all that difficult. But doing so,
and getting away, would be next to impossible.

Johan Larson
Doug Wickstrom
2006-05-12 15:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@comcast.net
Post by Charlie Stross
YeahBut, the point of departure for the alt-hist element takes place in
early 2002. Hmm.
(One of the scenes I was *so* looking forward to was writing the bit in
book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over his secret
service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas party, then makes a
clean get-away -- just to make it *clear* that this was alt-hist.
Unfortunately the scene didn't fit, so I ended up with something a lot
lower-key.
Would you tell us how this assassin was supposed to get away with it?
Best I can figure, since the president often makes public appearances,
killing him wouldn't in the end be all that difficult. But doing so,
and getting away, would be next to impossible.
A mortar would work. So would a good-sized anti-aircraft missile
with a visual-image targeting system. A ballistic missile with a
really low CEP would be quite effective.
Robert Sneddon
2006-05-12 16:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickstrom
Post by j***@comcast.net
Would you tell us how this assassin was supposed to get away with it?
The assassin has a built-in advantage over the Secret Service. This
advantage is explained in the first three books in the Family Trade
series, but I'll forbear explaining here for fear of spoilers. In fact,
offing the POTUS is piss-easy compared to the wet jobs the assassin is
normally called on to perform, but in those cases they are usually up
against security people with the same abilities they have and they know
what the assassin is capable of.
Post by Doug Wickstrom
Post by j***@comcast.net
Best I can figure, since the president often makes public appearances,
killing him wouldn't in the end be all that difficult. But doing so,
and getting away, would be next to impossible.
A mortar would work.
My recommendation to Charlie was a head shot from a De Lisle silenced
rifle, firing a .45ACP round. Alternatively a Fabrique Nationale P90 for
spray-and-pray with armour-piercing capability given the target is
widely believed to be wearing light body armour during most public
appearances. This also permits the interesting possibility of a screw-up
regarding the accidental use of subsonic P90S ammo in a regular P90.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
David G. Bell
2006-05-12 17:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sneddon
Post by j***@comcast.net
Would you tell us how this assassin was supposed to get away with it?
The assassin has a built-in advantage over the Secret Service. This
advantage is explained in the first three books in the Family Trade
series, but I'll forbear explaining here for fear of spoilers. In fact,
offing the POTUS is piss-easy compared to the wet jobs the assassin is
normally called on to perform, but in those cases they are usually up
against security people with the same abilities they have and they know
what the assassin is capable of.
And there are neither silver bullets nor wolfsbane buttonholes.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
Jim Battista
2006-05-13 12:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@comcast.net
Post by Charlie Stross
YeahBut, the point of departure for the alt-hist element takes
place in early 2002. Hmm.
(One of the scenes I was *so* looking forward to was writing the
bit in book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over
his secret service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas
party, then makes a clean get-away -- just to make it *clear*
that this was alt-hist. Unfortunately the scene didn't fit, so I
ended up with something a lot lower-key.
Would you tell us how this assassin was supposed to get away with it?
That whole "can shift to another world at will" thing that pops up a
few times in those books might come into play.
--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.
Robert Shaw
2006-05-12 15:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
(One of the scenes I was *so* looking forward to was writing the bit in
book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over his secret
service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas party, then makes a
clean get-away -- just to make it *clear* that this was alt-hist.
Unfortunately the scene didn't fit, so I ended up with something a lot
lower-key. Hmm. How do you think things would look today if Rummy and W
had gone for "Operation Iranian Freedom" in early 2003, instead of
whacking on the cheap pinata instead?)
But why would they do that?

Practically every motive they might have for a middle east intervention
(official and unofficial alike) is better satisfied by going for Iraq
first.

The principle exceptions are probably if Iran is on the verge of either
collapse or war. If the Iranian army hasn't been paid for six months,
it's a much more tempting target. If Iran is threatening to annex
southern Iraq, pre-emptive action could seem justifiable.

You can't really say what the consequences of "Operation Iranian
Freeeom" would be without knowing which, if any, of these possibilities
is the reason for the divergence.
--
'It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points' - Pratchett
Robert Shaw
Dan Goodman
2006-05-13 02:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
Post by Keith F. Lynch
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms
sneaked >> >> into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with
an American >> >> protagonist.)
If I recall correctly, it's not quite our world's US. So it could
easily have gotten a few Britishisms not found in our US.
Conversely, it might not have picked up such things as the slang
meanings of raspberry and bread.
YeahBut, the point of departure for the alt-hist element takes place
in early 2002. Hmm.
The observed point of departure, yes. However, the actual point of
departure might be somewhat earlier.
Post by Charlie Stross
(One of the scenes I was so looking forward to was writing the bit in
book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over his secret
service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas party, then
makes a clean get-away -- just to make it clear that this was
alt-hist. Unfortunately the scene didn't fit, so I ended up with
something a lot lower-key. Hmm. How do you think things would look
today if Rummy and W had gone for "Operation Iranian Freedom" in
early 2003, instead of whacking on the cheap pinata instead?)
-- Charlie
--
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://community.livejournal.com/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-13 19:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
One of the scenes I was *so* looking forward to was writing the bit
in book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over his
secret service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas party,
then makes a clean get-away -- just to make it *clear* that this was
alt-hist.
Why make something alternate history when you can make it hidden
history? I think it adds spice if the reader can imagine that the
events of the book are really happening in *this* world. Of course
plot or setting may make this impractical, but I haven't seen anything
in the first two books that precludes it.

Why would the Clan prefer Cheney as president? And how would the
assassin make a clean getaway without dematerializing in front of lots
of reliable witnesses and TV cameras, which is bound to cause people
to talk.

(I have heard that there are *always* cameras watching the president,
and that the rather morbid purpose of this is in case he's
assassinated, to get a clear view of what happened, unlike in '63.)

I would expect that the Clan dislikes Bush's surveillance state, but
assassinating him isn't likely to make it go away. Quite the opposite.

If a Clan member can transport whatever's firmly attached to them and
not attached to the ground, could one transport a whole airplane they
were in? If so, speaking of alternate history, what if a Clan member
were on Flight 175 on 9/11, and transported the whole plane a moment
before it was to hit the WTC? (I mention 175 instead of 11 since
far more people were watching that second impact.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Dan Goodman
2006-05-14 00:40:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Why make something alternate history when you can make it hidden
history?
1) If you're a Brit setting fiction in the US, so you don't need a
US-born spouse or life partner to make sure the US dialog is accurate.
Of course, this is less urgent for writers fluent in both Liverpudlian
and Ulster Scots.

2) If you're writing a story set three years from now, and you mention
prominent buildings, there's always the chance that those buildings
might not all be there by the time it's published.

3) The USSR might not be the last country whose continued existence
turns out to be less probable than it seems.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://community.livejournal.com/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Charlie Stross
2006-05-14 10:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
Post by Dan Goodman
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Why make something alternate history when you can make it hidden
history?
1) If you're a Brit setting fiction in the US, so you don't need a
US-born spouse or life partner to make sure the US dialog is accurate.
Speaking as the proverbial Brit setting fiction in the US, The real
problem I face is that the UK gets a lot of imported US cultural
material, so I end up with a view of American contemporary culture that
has UK bits mixed in with it. It's bloody hard to weed them out. Fish,
water, etc. I can make an end-run around it with sufficient beta
testers, but occasionally I fall flat on my face (if none of the readers
call me on something).

More annoyingly, the USA is a big place, and sometimes my readers have
differing opinions; something is perceived as an Odious Britishism(TM) in
North Carolina but as perfectly normal practice in New England. So even
test-readers and an eagle-eyed editor or two aren't ultimately enough
to guarantee versimilitude.

(One of the reasons I decided to set the series in the US was, that's
where I expected the readership to be. But another reason was the sheer
challenge of setting a novel in a country I've spent less than three
months of my life in -- to try to do so well enough to convince native
readers. I'm not terribly good at world-building, but the USA makes a
great shared universe setting, so to speak.)
Post by Dan Goodman
2) If you're writing a story set three years from now, and you mention
prominent buildings, there's always the chance that those buildings
might not all be there by the time it's published.
Also: the series is projected to run over several books. The publishing
industry being what it is, my publisher won't buy/print more than one
book per 12 months, even though they're willing to hand out multi-book
contracts. So reality has already diverged somewhat from what I
anticipated in October 2001 when I began writing the series (which is
now up to, um, mid to late 2002). At one point a couple of books hence,
I plan to jump five or ten years into the future -- I believe I'm
allowed to openly say it's an SF series in fantasy drag, these days --
and for *that* to work I really need to be able to make up some future.

(Hint: in the map of the series, the Peak Oil problem goes away after
book 6 -- but is replaced by half a dozen new problems, any one of which
is potentially even *more* dangerous.)


-- Charlie
Dan Goodman
2006-05-14 20:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
Speaking as the proverbial Brit setting fiction in the US, The real
problem I face is that the UK gets a lot of imported US cultural
material, so I end up with a view of American contemporary culture
that has UK bits mixed in with it. It's bloody hard to weed them out.
Fish, water, etc. I can make an end-run around it with sufficient
beta testers, but occasionally I fall flat on my face (if none of the
readers call me on something).
The visual-media stuff is easy to deal with. Movies get _everything_
wrong. TV does better, but is not dependable.
Post by Charlie Stross
More annoyingly, the USA is a big place, and sometimes my readers have
differing opinions; something is perceived as an Odious
Britishism(TM) in North Carolina but as perfectly normal practice in
New England.
Note that North Carolina has more than one dialect. And New England
has a whole bunch of them. Also: generally speaking, there can be
large cultural differences within walking distance.

And: A former Minnesota Senator who wanted to get his seat back hired
a campaign manager who had done well in New York State. It didn't
work; too many cultural differences.
Post by Charlie Stross
So even test-readers and an eagle-eyed editor or two
aren't ultimately enough to guarantee versimilitude.
(One of the reasons I decided to set the series in the US was, that's
where I expected the readership to be. But another reason was the
sheer challenge of setting a novel in a country I've spent less than
three months of my life in -- to try to do so well enough to convince
native readers. I'm not terribly good at world-building, but the USA
makes a great shared universe setting, so to speak.)
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://community.livejournal.com/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-14 20:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
Note that North Carolina has more than one dialect. And New England
has a whole bunch of them. Also: generally speaking, there can be
large cultural differences within walking distance.
Indeed. I have a map showing where in the greater Boston area soft
drinks are called "pop," "soda," or "tonic."

I have heard claims that forensic scientists can, by looking at
someone's writing, determine where he was raised and where he has
lived most of his adult life. I'm skeptical. I for one have read far
more than I've heard, and what I've read has been from all over, so
most of my knowledge of English doesn't come from my parents, peers,
or schoolteachers. I use US spellings, of course, but I doubt anyone
could tell which part of the US I'm from, or how much formal education
I've had.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-14 17:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Goodman
2) If you're writing a story set three years from now, and you
mention prominent buildings, there's always the chance that those
buildings might not all be there by the time it's published.
That's the advantage of setting a novel in the past or present rather
than the future. Of course that often isn't practical for SF, but it
would seem to be for the series in question.

As an aside, I suspect the majority of SF that was set in any specific
future year is now set in the past. Does anyone have hard numbers?

As another aside, _Lathe of Heaven_ is unique in that a *geological*
change made it incorrect. (It describes the shape of Mt. St. Helens,
and that mountain ceased having that shape between the time the novel
was published and the time it was set.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Jens Kilian
2006-05-14 19:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
As another aside, _Lathe of Heaven_ is unique in that a *geological*
change made it incorrect. (It describes the shape of Mt. St. Helens,
and that mountain ceased having that shape between the time the novel
was published and the time it was set.)
It may actually regain its former shape (or at least a similar one); there's
a rather large neat-looking boulder in the crater that's supposed to grow
at a rate of a few *feet* a day.

http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/MSH/Images/MSH04/framework.html
--
mailto:***@acm.org As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
http://del.icio.us/jjk
Daniel R. Reitman
2006-05-15 05:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jens Kilian
It may actually regain its former shape (or at least a similar one); there's
a rather large neat-looking boulder in the crater that's supposed to grow
at a rate of a few *feet* a day.
http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/MSH/Images/MSH04/framework.html
I doubt that the current eruptive event will be sufficient to replace
the damage.

Dan, ad nauseam
Dan Goodman
2006-05-14 20:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Dan Goodman
2) If you're writing a story set three years from now, and you
mention prominent buildings, there's always the chance that those
buildings might not all be there by the time it's published.
That's the advantage of setting a novel in the past or present rather
than the future. Of course that often isn't practical for SF, but it
would seem to be for the series in question.
For setting it in the present, depends partly on whether it's set in a
particular time _which is either the time of writing or a bit earlier_
or in an unspecified "present." For the latter, or for a novel set a
couple of months later than the time of writing, the writer is taking a
chance.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
As an aside, I suspect the majority of SF that was set in any specific
future year is now set in the past. Does anyone have hard numbers?
I suspect you're right. 1970 used to be a popular future year, and
2000 got very popular for a while.
--
Dan Goodman
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community
http://community.livejournal.com/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Aaron Denney
2006-05-13 21:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
(One of the scenes I was *so* looking forward to was writing the bit in
book 4 where the Clan assassin blows W's brains all over his secret
service bodyguards at the 2002 White House Christmas party, then makes a
clean get-away -- just to make it *clear* that this was alt-hist.
Unfortunately the scene didn't fit, so I ended up with something a lot
lower-key. Hmm. How do you think things would look today if Rummy and W
had gone for "Operation Iranian Freedom" in early 2003, instead of
whacking on the cheap pinata instead?)
Operation Ira* Liberation is so much more euphonious.
--
Aaron Denney
-><-
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-13 21:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Denney
Operation Ira* Liberation is so much more euphonious.
Iraq, Iran, Italy, Illinois -- one of those "I" places. Who can keep
track? Better bomb them all.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Jette Goldie
2006-05-12 14:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Stross
Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
Post by j***@comcast.net
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
Charlie, did you choose an American setting with an eye to bumping up
sales in the larger market?
Guilty as charged.
(It appears to have backfired, insofar as no UK publisher has taken the
series. So I'm trying the other boot, by seeing if the US market will go
for a Scottish cop yarn :)
Give it a sexy Scotsman with a ponytail and a lot of sex and a lot of my US
friends will buy it.

:-P
--
Jette Goldie
***@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
("reply to" is spamblocked)
j***@comcast.net
2006-05-12 14:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jette Goldie
Give it a sexy Scotsman with a ponytail and a lot of sex and a lot of my US
friends will buy it.
How about a bald scotsman with a big fuzzy beard?

Johan Larson
Paul Ciszek
2006-05-12 15:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jette Goldie
Post by Charlie Stross
(It appears to have backfired, insofar as no UK publisher has taken the
series. So I'm trying the other boot, by seeing if the US market will go
for a Scottish cop yarn :)
Give it a sexy Scotsman with a ponytail and a lot of sex and a lot of my US
friends will buy it.
Only if the sexy Scotsman beheads people.
--
Please reply to: | "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is
pciszek at panix dot com | indistinguishable from malice."
Autoreply is disabled |
Jette Goldie
2006-05-12 15:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Jette Goldie
Post by Charlie Stross
(It appears to have backfired, insofar as no UK publisher has taken the
series. So I'm trying the other boot, by seeing if the US market will go
for a Scottish cop yarn :)
Give it a sexy Scotsman with a ponytail and a lot of sex and a lot of my US
friends will buy it.
Only if the sexy Scotsman beheads people.
Not *too* often and only when they need to be killed.
--
Jette Goldie
***@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
("reply to" is spamblocked)
Seth Breidbart
2006-05-12 22:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jette Goldie
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Jette Goldie
Give it a sexy Scotsman with a ponytail and a lot of sex and a lot of my
US friends will buy it.
Only if the sexy Scotsman beheads people.
Not *too* often
No more than once each.

Seth
mike weber
2006-05-13 09:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seth Breidbart
Post by Jette Goldie
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Jette Goldie
Give it a sexy Scotsman with a ponytail and a lot of sex and a lot of my
US friends will buy it.
Only if the sexy Scotsman beheads people.
Not *too* often
No more than once each.
That's generally about how often they need to be killed, too.
Ulrika O'Brien
2006-05-14 05:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Plus the fact that I habitually use USA spellings.
So does Charlie Stross, at least in the versions of his novels sold
in the US. Does that prove he's really American?
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
You have a tin ear. The thing is overloaded with Britishisms. Often as
many as one per page.
--
Were it not air, it would not burn. -Graydon Saunders

Ulrika O'Brien*fwa*instigator at large
Keith F. Lynch
2006-05-14 17:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Keith F. Lynch
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
You have a tin ear. The thing is overloaded with Britishisms.
Often as many as one per page.
Can you give me some examples?

Keep in mind that American English varies in different parts of the
US. The novel was set mostly around Boston and New York. Ideally
its English should be evaulated by someone who has spent much of
their life in one or both places.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Ulrika O'Brien
2006-05-14 22:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Keith F. Lynch
(Seriously, I am impressed that only a couple Britishisms sneaked
into _The Hidden Family_, which is set in the US, with an American
protagonist.)
You have a tin ear. The thing is overloaded with Britishisms.
Often as many as one per page.
Can you give me some examples?
Keep in mind that American English varies in different parts of the
US. The novel was set mostly around Boston and New York. Ideally
its English should be evaulated by someone who has spent much of
their life in one or both places.
It's worse than I remembered.

Let's see, by p. 17 we've had "wind her up" for "tease her", "banker's
draft" for "cashier's check", "bonded store" for "bonded warehouse,"
"let out" for "lease," "purpose-built" for "custom built," "premises"
for "building," at least two is/are confusions, "pay into" for
"deposit," "issue myself with shares" for "issue shares to myself",
"road" used for "street," (as in learning how to cross the 'road' safely
in an urban setting), one instance of using "hadn't got" for "hadn't
gotten," "the late medieval" used for "the late Middle Ages," "food
shopping," for "grocery shopping," and the casual phrases "shaking like
jelly" and "common as muck." All, mind you, within the first 8 pages of
story-telling, in a narrative that starts on page 9 and of which I
skipped the first three pages because they're set in the pseudo-
Victorian America whose history is so divergent that I've decided to
just take a pass on all the British usage as plausible, given a limited
omniscient narrator. So in other words, 16 hits for common-in-British,
uncommon-in-American usage choices in 5 pages of narrative, and that's
not counting the stuff that I squinted at as being vaguely more
plausible, but which still made me pause.

Now, you can probably argue for individual choices in that list, as at
least possible in a native USian speaker, but the overall impression,
when you get that many unlikely-in-an-American or -American-influenced
speaker, is of underlying Britishness of voice.

Without going back to the text obsessively, I remember Charlie
consistently uses "side" where an American would say "team," and
"trolley" where an American would say "cart." It's possible those are
usages also employed in Bostonians, but if so, I've completely missed
it.
--
Were it not air, it would not burn. -Graydon Saunders

Ulrika O'Brien*fwa*instigator at large
Sea Wasp
2006-05-15 00:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Let's see, by p. 17 we've had "wind her up" for "tease her",
I'm a native-born American of the Northeast, and I've USED that
expression and heard it used. No prize.


"banker's
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
draft" for "cashier's check",
Ditto.
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"bonded store" for "bonded warehouse,"
Dunno what "bonded" is in that context, but using "store" for
"warehouse" is odd.
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"let out" for "lease,"
That IS rather British. I know that "to let" means "for lease" but I
don't think I've seen it used much here.
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"purpose-built" for "custom built,"
"premises"
for "building,"
Premises is often used that way.
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
at least two is/are confusions, "pay into" for
"deposit," "issue myself with shares" for "issue shares to myself",
"road" used for "street," (as in learning how to cross the 'road' safely
in an urban setting),
Here I think you're getting silly. Road and street are completely
interchangeable and I've used cross the road, cross the street, about
equally.
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
one instance of using "hadn't got" for "hadn't
gotten,"
That's just as much a Burgh thing as anything else.
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"the late medieval" used for "the late Middle Ages,"
Which is purely a matter of choice, not geographic linguistics.
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"food
shopping," for "grocery shopping," and the casual phrases "shaking like
jelly" and "common as muck."
Common as muck I'll grant you. But "shaking like jelly" and "food VS
grocery" are just... not relevant here.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Ulrika O'Brien
2006-05-15 03:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Let's see, by p. 17 we've had "wind her up" for "tease her",
I'm a native-born American of the Northeast, and I've USED that
expression and heard it used. No prize.
Did you read the part at all where I talked about high-probability for
USian usage versus low-probability? I did *say* that you can make
individual arguments for individual usage, but when you get to a certain
percentage of low-probability USian usage, it reads British? Yes, you
can get people who use "wind someone up" occasionally in the US, but
Brits use it *a lot* and when you get that *in combination* with a bunch
of other more-British-than-American usage choices it contributes to the
sense of a colloquial British speaker.


[snip]
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"premises"
for "building,"
Premises is often used that way.
But generally only in contexts where someone is speaking a specific sub-
dialect like police-ese. This was tone-deaf in context.
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
at least two is/are confusions, "pay into" for
"deposit," "issue myself with shares" for "issue shares to myself",
"road" used for "street," (as in learning how to cross the 'road' safely
in an urban setting),
Here I think you're getting silly. Road and street are completely
interchangeable and I've used cross the road, cross the street, about
equally.
I absolutely don't. And again, Britons are much more likely to refer to
an urban thoroughfare as a road rather than a street, whereas Americans
tend to go the other way, so if you're trying to hit the percentages for
*sounding* American, go for street.
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
one instance of using "hadn't got" for "hadn't
gotten,"
That's just as much a Burgh thing as anything else.
I'm sorry? I have no idea what you mean by "a Burgh thing".
--
Were it not air, it would not burn. -Graydon Saunders

Ulrika O'Brien*fwa*instigator at large
Sea Wasp
2006-05-15 04:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Let's see, by p. 17 we've had "wind her up" for "tease her",
I'm a native-born American of the Northeast, and I've USED that
expression and heard it used. No prize.
Did you read the part at all where I talked about high-probability for
USian usage versus low-probability?
Yes. I don't agree with your probability estimates, obviously.

I did *say* that you can make
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
individual arguments for individual usage, but when you get to a certain
percentage of low-probability USian usage, it reads British? Yes, you
can get people who use "wind someone up" occasionally in the US, but
Brits use it *a lot* and when you get that *in combination* with a bunch
of other more-British-than-American usage choices it contributes to the
sense of a colloquial British speaker.
[snip]
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"premises"
for "building,"
Premises is often used that way.
But generally only in contexts where someone is speaking a specific sub-
dialect like police-ese. This was tone-deaf in context.
Police, real estate, formal, or just more educated tone would be my
estimations. My family and I used to use "premises" quite freely. And
my parents were also native-born American. (and NONE of my family has
UK roots)
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
at least two is/are confusions, "pay into" for
"deposit," "issue myself with shares" for "issue shares to myself",
"road" used for "street," (as in learning how to cross the 'road' safely
in an urban setting),
Here I think you're getting silly. Road and street are completely
interchangeable and I've used cross the road, cross the street, about
equally.
I absolutely don't. And again, Britons are much more likely to refer to
an urban thoroughfare as a road rather than a street, whereas Americans
tend to go the other way, so if you're trying to hit the percentages for
*sounding* American, go for street.
I absolutely and totally disagree. I don't think there's any such
division, and I suspect if I go around tomorrow and ask I will find
that people don't even see a DIFFERENCE and use the two utterly
interchangeably. "Roads? Where we're going, we don't NEED roads." "Why
did the chicken cross the road?"
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
one instance of using "hadn't got" for "hadn't
gotten,"
That's just as much a Burgh thing as anything else.
I'm sorry? I have no idea what you mean by "a Burgh thing".
Pittsburghese. "My car needs worshed. I hadn't got it done for a
while." I lived in the 'Burgh for a while.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Ulrika O'Brien
2006-05-16 00:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Let's see, by p. 17 we've had "wind her up" for "tease her",
I'm a native-born American of the Northeast, and I've USED that
expression and heard it used. No prize.
Did you read the part at all where I talked about high-probability for
USian usage versus low-probability?
Yes. I don't agree with your probability estimates, obviously.
It wasn't obvious from the way you phrased your reply, but okay. A
casual survey of Google suggests that I have a more accurate sense of
the probabilities, however. Of the top 30 hits on the phrase "winding
you up," 16 were UK users, 4 I couldn't estabilish, 3 were ANZAC types,
2 were Irish, 2 were using the phrase in a completely different way, 2
were US and 1 was from Singapore. Of the two US posters, one had
insufficient context to really tell if he was using the phrase in the
relevant sense.

So if we give all of the unknown posters to the US, that's still 16 to
6. Further, if we acknowledge that certain countries' usage is more
influenced by the UK than the US, and go ahead and toss Ireland,
Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore in on the UK side, that's 22-6
out of 28 uses in the relevant sense.
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Sea Wasp
Here I think you're getting silly. Road and street are completely
interchangeable and I've used cross the road, cross the street, about
equally.
I absolutely don't. And again, Britons are much more likely to refer to
an urban thoroughfare as a road rather than a street, whereas Americans
tend to go the other way, so if you're trying to hit the percentages for
*sounding* American, go for street.
I absolutely and totally disagree. I don't think there's any such
division, and I suspect if I go around tomorrow and ask I will find
that people don't even see a DIFFERENCE and use the two utterly
interchangeably. "Roads? Where we're going, we don't NEED roads." "Why
did the chicken cross the road?"
A quick Google on "How to cross the road/street" suggests that 'road'
favors UK usage and "street" favors US. This is skewed, I grant you,
by the existence of a book by UK author Anne Fine, entitled "How to
Cross the Road and Not Turn Into a Pizza".

And again, I'm not claiming that Americans don't use the *word* 'road,'
or even the phrase "cross the road," but rather that we use it in
subtly but definitely different *ways* from UK-influenced speakers, and
that when a UK writer uses it in the UK fashion in the mouth of an
American character it sounds slightly off. In the same way that if I
were writing a British character and used the word "pavement" to mean
"road surface" that would set off bells in the heads of British readers
while Americans probably wouldn't notice. But the fact is that when
Brits say "pavement" they nearly invariably mean "sidewalk" and never
"that with which streets or sidewalks are paved."
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
one instance of using "hadn't got" for "hadn't
gotten,"
That's just as much a Burgh thing as anything else.
I'm sorry? I have no idea what you mean by "a Burgh thing".
Pittsburghese. "My car needs worshed. I hadn't got it done for a
while." I lived in the 'Burgh for a while.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I'm afraid it doesn't help at all in
the specific instance, since the relevant characters aren't from
Pittsburgh and aren't otherwise portrayed as speaking dialect, so it
would stick out as an odd usage anyway, and again, in the context of a
bunch of other UK-inflected word choices, increases the sense that the
characters are talking funny for their purported backgrounds.

--Ulrika

Seth Breidbart
2006-05-15 20:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
I absolutely don't. And again, Britons are much more likely to refer to
an urban thoroughfare as a road rather than a street, whereas Americans
tend to go the other way, so if you're trying to hit the percentages for
*sounding* American, go for street.
"Why did the chicken cross the wossname?"

Seems I've heard that joke (and a few trillion variants) in the US.

Seth
Ulrika O'Brien
2006-05-15 23:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Seth Breidbart
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
I absolutely don't. And again, Britons are much more likely to refer to
an urban thoroughfare as a road rather than a street, whereas Americans
tend to go the other way, so if you're trying to hit the percentages for
*sounding* American, go for street.
"Why did the chicken cross the wossname?"
Seems I've heard that joke (and a few trillion variants) in the US.
Oh, sure, of course. I don't mean to claim that Americans never use
the word 'road' or the phrase "cross the road" but rather that
Americans (or at least some geographical subgroups thereof) will use
'road' versus 'street' in subtly different ways from speakers of
UK/Commonwealth-inflected English. In particular, when speaking of
large, busy, urban settings it's my experience that Americans are
unlikely to choose "road" over "street". That if you were crossing
something in Manhattan, you would be likelier to refer to it as a
street -- possibly unless it happened to be an avenue -- than a road.
Daniel R. Reitman
2006-05-15 03:50:35 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 May 2006 00:47:32 GMT, Sea Wasp
. . . .
. . . .
"bonded store" for "bonded warehouse,"
Dunno what "bonded" is in that context, but using "store" for
"warehouse" is odd.
That would be a warehouse for storing liquor, in which case the
government requires a bond against excise taxes.

(There is an amusing little song called "Valparaiso," which tells the
tale of a bonded warehouse in Windsor, Ontario. Apparently, during
Prohibition, it was quite common to see rowboats list Valparaiso,
Chile, as the destination for whiskey being exported therefrom.)
. . . .
. . . .
Dan, ad nauseam
Seth Breidbart
2006-05-15 20:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel R. Reitman
On Mon, 15 May 2006 00:47:32 GMT, Sea Wasp
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ulrika O'Brien
"bonded store" for "bonded warehouse,"
Dunno what "bonded" is in that context, but using "store" for
"warehouse" is odd.
That would be a warehouse for storing liquor, in which case the
government requires a bond against excise taxes.
Or anything else being imported, for storage pre-Customs.

Seth
Nels E. Satterlund
2006-04-17 20:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
But it doesn't stay at the top of my brain and I have to dig to remember
it/learn it over again.

Back for Norwescon and really tired.
And I didn't see Mark A. again this year ... Were you there Mark?
--
Nels E Satterlund I don't speak for the company, specially here
***@Starstream.net <-- Use this address for personal Email
My Lurkers motto: I read much better and faster, than I type.
Bill Higgins
2006-04-17 21:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nels E. Satterlund
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
But it doesn't stay at the top of my brain and I have to dig to remember
it/learn it over again.
I had this problem, so I just E-mailed Sea Wasp and asked him the title of
his book.

Then I went out and bought a copy of *Digital Knight* by Ryk E. Spoor.

As long as we (or Google) have Sea Wasp's e-mail address, there's not much
of a problem.

Hey, didn't "Doc" Smith's sobriquet wind up on the covers of some of his
novels? Maybe that would help in this case.
--
Bill Higgins | "...most top computer programmers over the age of 30
Fermi National | have developed an emulation program
Accelerator | that allows us to fake being normal human beings
Laboratory | most of the time. I've gotten mine tuned
| to the point where it only crashes
Internet: | once or twice a week."
***@fnal.gov | --Robert J. Woodhead
Keith F. Lynch
2006-04-18 02:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Higgins
I had this problem, so I just E-mailed Sea Wasp and asked him the
title of his book.
As long as we (or Google) have Sea Wasp's e-mail address, there's
not much of a problem.
It's a problem for him if he become a very popular author. Imagine if
every Tom Clancy fan emailed Tom, and he was only able to sell as many
books as he sent replies.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-04-18 04:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Higgins
Post by Nels E. Satterlund
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Sea Wasp
Unless you're J.K. Rowling, your main problem is that no one knows
who the hell you are.
Nitpick: Not posting under your real name doesn't exactly help.
But of course, in the Wasp's case it hardly matters, because we
all know who *he* is.
But it doesn't stay at the top of my brain and I have to dig to
remember it/learn it over again.
I had this problem, so I just E-mailed Sea Wasp and asked him the title
of his book.
Then I went out and bought a copy of *Digital Knight* by Ryk E. Spoor.
As long as we (or Google) have Sea Wasp's e-mail address, there's not
much of a problem.
Hey, didn't "Doc" Smith's sobriquet wind up on the covers of some of his
novels? Maybe that would help in this case.
I never saw "Piglet" on any of George Alec Effinger's books, though.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
s***@yahoo.com
2006-04-15 18:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

Intelligent responses, a mate shouldn't be so lucky!

I will sit down and write it out as best possible.

It could be a movie. I have asked some questions on a screenwriting
group but the group is dead compared to this one.

I'll keep my eye on these boards.

Back to lurking.

Scott Drake
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